Former Riverside Park Speedway general manager Joe Lewandoski is spearheading a group to introduce a touring SK Light Modified division for the 2018 racing season in the Northeast.
Lewandoski, a longtime veteran in short track racing management, will host an informational meeting to be held on Nov. 19 at 1 p.m. at Hoosier Tire East in Manchester to introduce the United Northeast Crate Asphalt Modified division.
Organizers are proposing a tour that would prove cost effective for teams and not infringe upon on the fields in weekly divisions at short tracks.
“I’m not doing this to hurt any of the tracks,” Lewandoski said. “We will not run any Friday night races or Saturday night races in April, May, June, July, August and September, which is the NASCAR Weekly points season. During the months of April through September, we’ll run on Wednesdays and Sundays. And then in October we’ll try to hook onto some of those big events.
“My goal is to take the 602 Asphalt Modifieds to 20 racetracks hopefully within five years. Hopefully we can have 20 racetracks running this type of car under the same rules. Basically I’m comparing what the 602 Dirt Sportsman car did for dirt Modified racing. Right now, I can buy a 602 Dirt Sportsman car and I could race at probably 35 dirt tracks.”
The division would feature $6,000 purses with $500 paid to win and $200 to start and bonuses paid out for consistent loyalty to events.
The division will employ the use of used NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour “take-off” tires that will cost teams $25 for each tire, or $100 per set.
“I’m hoping we get more people racing these Modifieds, especially younger people, but also this program would be designed to help the guy that’s maybe 45 years old and can’t afford to run [an SK Modified] and cant afford to run a [Modified Touring division] and he’s got his car sitting in the garage getting dusty,” Lewandoski said. “He goes and buys a 602 motor for $4,500, plus another $4,000 of bolt on parts, and he can go racing and have some fun.”
Lewandoski said he’s hoping to have an 8-12 race schedule for the 2018 season.
Hoosier Tire East is located at 56H Loomis St. in Manchester, Ct. Those looking for more information can also call Lewandoski at 386-843-4898 or 386-265-0246.
The tracks need to get together and put an end to this. All this is doing is just killing weekly racing car counts. There should only be one touring series. The whelen modified tour. That’s it. No mini,street,or pro stock. Make all the rules the same in the northeast tracks so racers can go to multiple tracks without making changes to there cars.
What is the minimum age requirement?
The tracks can put an end to this quickly. I would love to pay 50$ to get in the pits at TSMP for this tour. Just a joke and all the weekly divisions pay for it.
Spotters please
I agree Franky.
If he can pull this off good for him and good for racing.I don’t see how but time will tell.I didn’t know there were so many cars sitting around in garages, but he certainly knows more than me.If these tours are successful I don’t how it hurts racing.If a track owner can have a wed nite show in addition to their regular weekend show isn’t that good for business?And if car owners and drivers have an opportunity to race when they otherwise wouldn’t, why not!
I said this before. If the tracks agree to give the tours dates, they will keep coming. The tracks can stop it all by saying no more tours.
The Speedbowl rolled out the 375 Pro Sportman division this weekend. A new series that seems to be basically the Street Stocks that morphed into Late Models from a decade or two or three ago. The series is a new creation of WTC that oversees the Mr Rooter Truck series. They are looking to sign up tracks for 2018 and tour according to their web page. Enter the touring SK Lights. Enter the new modified touring series. Is the hand writing on the wall? Weekly racing is on it’s last legs. Is the future of summer racing bi weekly special events with and mixture of touring series where tracks stagger their show dates? Oh ya I can’t wait to see how this shakes out.
Enough already with these tours. All it means to me is higher front gate prices. What is so wrong with having just the weekly divisions? Who exactly is demanding all this, the drivers, tracks,fans?
It sounds like this will be part of Wacky Wednesday and Fast Friday type of events that places like the Bowl and Seekonk run. It doesn’t really affect real racing schedules. I wouldn’t call it a tour though.
These SK Lites cars can run Friday at Stafford and Saturday at Waterford and Monadnock. They can run both nites if they choose. Why do they need a midweek show as yet another option? Name me one “tour” that has been recently created that is successful?? These new “tours” are all for the self gratification of a few people with zero public demand. They are becoming more like racing clubs. Just go get 10 or 15 buddies, rent a track and have an informal race.
I’m absolutely in! As a driver I would love to race a bunch of different tracks at a low cost for tires. Running different tracks would make a racer a better driver.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with the concept. This will give the SKL’s some new venues to race at than just the 3 they currently have in CT. Though 8-12 additional races is a little aggressive to start especially with the schedules the other 3 tracks will have for 2018.
I do though have concerns with the engine rules and how strictly they will be enforced with a competent tech staff in place. I also have concerns with the used WMT tires and what the selection process for each team will be along with the compound available for the particular track. This force teams to carry multiple inventory’s of tires based on the CT track rules and the touring series rules. Will you have to purchase them directly from HTE which is a nice little bonus for them selling the tire not once but twice, nice profit margin there. Finally let’s get to the purse. The SKL’s currently race for $300 to win with the new purse at $500 to win. I would like to see that just a touch higher like $600-$700 while leaving the $200 to start in place along with the loyality bonus what ever that will be. That will at least help cover the cost of travel, fuel, tires maintenance and repairs. The last thing to consider is depending on what the new venues will be, you will need additional differential gear sets. Those who run a straight rear this will be costly, those who run a QC rear considerably less but still necessary.
Again the concept is good however much to consider in other areas that need to be better thought out.
Hey Tony Membrino, your thoughts if you care to comment since you did the triple last year. Must have been many late nights with Stafford/Waterford back to back nights and Thompson sprinkled in here and there, LOL……
Look forward to hearing your thoughts man and always appreciate talking with you!
back in the day when i ran modifeds the sk came along was to be affordable race cars for the guy who was getting forced out of the mods because of cost now days a racer is getting forced out of the sk divison and going to the sk ights putting the lights on tour will just make them unaffortdable also just make a stanrad rule for all mod divisons with cost cap it just migth bring some cars back to the tracks just a thought.
Find a demand a fill it. That’s a business thing isn’t it? So where’s the demand? Not spectators they already get the demand for Lights filled in many places. Must be owners? Like the mods they want more control and better pay. Or guys that just want to create a series to play with by convincing owners they want more control and better pay. Meeting at Hoosier to discuss using old tires. Say what?
this is a bad idea. people r not going 2 go the races on a wednesday or sunday to see sk lites. Stafford and Waterford should join together and pay at least a $1000.00 to win and have individual championships plus 1 overall champ that pays big money. Families do not have the money now a days for extra race nights.
I think it’s awesome!! Put an end to it you say?? $100 sets of tires? Affordable motors? Bigger purses?? Sign it up!!! Best news I’ve heard in a long time!!!8
Not really sure how the tire rule will work. Better option might b a 10″ tire
Modified tour tires will not work. You’ll always have someone connected with a mod tour car to be scuffing tires for the bigger dollar teams. Sk!s started off as a cheap division for people that had old modified tour type cars that couldn’t compete with the big dollar teams. When my family started in the sk division a competitive engine would cost $3500. These engine builders drive up the price of racing.
If you go with a 10” tire then your going new. By going with WMT take offs you can get 4 tires for less than the price of 1 new tire which would negate the cost savings.
As long as they don’t let things get out of control it may just work.
I second Humphry’s call for input from Tony Membrino or Stuart Fearn for that matter.
As a fan of Stafford I feel threatened. Lights have great fields and tight competition at Stafford. A wild card threatening to upset all that is troubling. On the other hand if you own a car or support touring divisions now you’re probably completely open minded. One thing I’m pretty sure of is using old tires is ridiculous. The idea is to reduce uncertainty when you bolt on new rubber not increase it by taking the chance you;re putting on used skates. The other thing I’m completely sure of based on experience is that if someone says low cost racing run the other way cause there is no such thing.
It appears everybody is voicing the same concern. When a cost saving division is started the tracks allow them to get out of control with rule changes and the cost savings go south.
Flying you are correct, the engine builders appear to be the worst offenders.
this is not an sk light tour. Sk light engines are too expensive, this is a crate engine tour – big difference. I think the 3 ct tracks should allow crate engines with a weight break and a bonus and hopefully the crate engine becomes the engine of choice. This is how the small block became the engine of choice – weight breaks and bonuses, stafford used to pay $500 extra to the first small block across the line until they started winning
Was not the headline New SK Light Touring Division Proposed For 2018 Racing Season? Nothing about crate engine tour even though that is what the SKL engine was born as.
I wouldn’t mind seeing them at Seekonk, I’m a super late model guy but I love to watch modifieds and we usually only get four or five modified races at most at Seekonk a year
It’s a freakin GM 602 crate engine, what Stafford stipulates. Watch the racing, listen to the drivers. It’s a handling and momentum division based on the fact it is a 602 GM CRATE ENGINE. FAB controls the rebuild process and smack me if I’m wrong but they are doing a great job. Stafford had done a great job other then not eliminating the dying Late Models and promoting the Lights with more money.
Hollywood and I will attend the meeting @ Hoosier to put our 2 cents in.
That is RAD that is the authorized rebuild center. Would like to see a couple more to spread the wealth around so there is a few choices.
Smack, RAD, of course. Thanks for the correction Humphry.
Deja Vu all over again.. this was the tire plan with xmods, with a motor claim and plate to keep costs down. Started ok, lots of cars came out of barns, sheds, and fields to put on a ten ish car feature. But they came out of the woodwork. Then they went to used sk tires due to issues, no track claim ever happened so motors went to full blown sk pieces, new cars started showing up, and Terry eames promised the crate move would save them all money, with the cost never spiralling out of control. Any of those teams still around? Anyone left that hasn’t paid eight grand or more for a crate? The answer isn’t more touring series. The answer is give us back affordable, weekly or monthly racing so low budget teams can show up. Is weekly racing dying? Yes, but it’s not just these tours killing it. Spiralling costs with the attitude of “racings not cheap get over it” is.
Man Bob g I love your thought process. I guess you conclude with proper rules and enforcement that racing can be made attainable to more people. My view it exists at Stafford in the SK’s and Lites. Serious efforts to contain costs that clearly have worked judging by car counts. At Waterford they offer Mini Stocks, XCars, SuperX Cars and more for the entry level. In 1980’s dollars a Street Stocker at Stafford paid $4000 for a TA motor, motor of choice for those running up front. A 602 crate motor now $4200 is a bargain. So what are we talking about enforcement? RAD routinely dyno’s engines when Stafford says pull them. Ask Johnny Walker about that. My view what these guys with their tour are trying to do already exists on a weekly basis. They have a few more bells and whistles and are throwing out goals they have no idea are attainable but the formula is proven and can be found at Stafford on a weekly basis. If I was Staffords management I’d be ticked.
Just a comment and a thought… We here all this talk about checking crate motors.. motors that were originally all relativelly equal and inexpensive when they come from GM. Now you take them and allow motor builders to perform modifications the price can now triple and the possibility of games being played exists. What would be so wrong to all the critics on here of running an all originally sealed 602 crate division in the Lites? 1/3 of the cost and close close racing that would hinge more on set up and driver ability to be up front and win? Non of the fans would notice a difference, it would be better racing and much higher car counts! Help me out critics, what is so wrong with this concept?? $4k for a motor versus up to $12k is a huge difference! A difference that teams can use to run a full season, pay to fix the car after crashes or make it possible for teams to even field a car or not!
I don’t know where the situation exists that you are talking about SK Lite Fan. I know it isn’t Stafford.
What doesn’t exist at Stafford Doug? The enormous cost of running a built crate engine versus an out of the box 1/3 of the cost GM sealed crate engine? If that is what your referring to your respectfully wrong, read the rile book. If your reffering to cheating please know I’m not making any allegations. My point is solely related to cost and a totally equal playing field of everyone having identical ponies in the Car. If you talk to the majority of the car owners and teams in the field they will tell you this division is extremely expensive.
Sounds like SKL owners and drivers should attend and hear out the plan.May be more fruitful than running weekly
2018 Stafford Engine Rule
“The GM part number 88958602 factory sealed circle track “602” crate engine is the only engine permitted. The motor may be purchased and delivered to one of our authorized SMS service centers, or you may purchase the engine through one of our authorized SMS service centers. This engine requires specific changes made to it to compete, and the work will be performed at the authorized SMS service center, then the engine will be resealed by SMS Officials. Any service work requiring the removal of any seal bolts must also be scheduled with, and approved by SMS Officials before the seal bolts are removed. Tampering with seals will result in penalties and loss of eligibility of the engine to compete in the SK Light division. All engines must be sealed and documented to compete at SMS. All of the parts specified and/or that come stock OEM on these engines must remain as delivered, with no modifications or alterations of any kind. Engines may not be disassembled without being in need of repair. A maximum overbore of .030″ will be permitted. The maximum static compression ratio is 9.3 to 1. Please call our authorized SMS service centers or email the SMS technical staff at [email protected] with any questions on these rules.”
At Stafford the competition was even and car counts good. The only two dominant rabbits in any division were Zack Robinson and Johnny Walker in the Dare division. Robinson got caught and Walker had his motor pulled, tested by FAB and it was completely within spec. RAD routinely dyno’s engines and they must be within the parameters set for the GM 602 crate engine. In total the idea that someone is paying $12000 to circumvent the rules and getting a juiced up motor is not born out by any evidence. We go through this all the time and it never gets past the gut feeling stage. Tech inspectors are weak or stupid, FAB is crooked as hell and everyone is cheating their butts off. How they put up with it is beyond me. Actually TA decided they didn’t want to cause of the grief. If you know of something specific please share it. Otherwise it’s just your opinion which is fine but not really leading to anything.
Doug again let me be clear, I am making no comment or accusation about any one cheating, my point is cost. You appear to be really good to cut and paste but you seem to be missing my point or don’t trully understand what can be done to these engines to legally make more power in a rebuild.
Every fraction of a horse power is key in this division and it costs money.
These motor guys rebuild them to the limit of legal tolerances and they charge the customer for it as they should.You seem to not realize they are allowed to bore them, limited machining, redo the valves, use the cams who’s lobe graphs push the 5 degree tolerence etc, it goes on and on and this all costs money and makes a huge performance difference in this division.
I know many of people that have spent $12k on these motors with the builders all to get the edge.
What your seeing in the front are not out of the box untouched stock $4k crate motors. If that’s the only thing you could run you would see alot more competitors, who can run a full season, tighter racing and it would come down to chasis set up and driver ability. Think about it Doug, stock is 350 HP, rebuilt and carefully pushed to the limit there adding well 0ver 5% more then stock, you don’t think it makes a difference in performance?
Doug, you do realize that the only year that the SK lites ran an absolute box stock crate engine was the first year, 2006. Rob Arute use to go to the race shops and watch you install a racing pan. You were allowed to change valve springs during the course of the year, you ran a 5700 RPM rev chip on your ignition box and that was it. During the 2007, there were issues with inconsistences in GM’s own crate engine program and that’s when engine builders were allowed to open up engines to level the playing field. The days of a $3500 engine being competitive were done. Now to be at least a contender you have to spend at least 6K. And like others have said some teams spend way more than that.
Where’s the beef? SK Lite Fan mocks me for showing the actual rules that he eluded to and Joe Lajoie refers to 2006 and $3500 crate engines out of the blue like it’s even relevant. Where’s the beef? Where is one informed source that says all the building and money is being spent for a few more horsepower? Joe says $6000, Sk Lite fan up to $12000.
In a string from Racer Kid Stuart Fearn was kind enough to answer a bunch of questions I posed and one response about engines was this.
“Every Limited Late Model, SK lite, and (i believe) winning Dare stocks are all crate motor powered. For the most part standard or they certainly should be. Still various tuning like timing and carburetor tweaking can make a difference so the teams have to be spot on with that and proper maintenance.
Moving to the front is based on handling for sure, like 100%. Of course you need the driver to get the job done. A huge part that never gets mentioned is the tire rule. LLM get one tire credit a week so some cars have new tires and others have 3 week old tires no matter how much money you have in the budget. Huge difference in performance and grip. ”
That’s Stuart Fearn of Fearn Motorsports including Tom, Alexandra and Ryan.
I can’t find it but Tony Membrino is on record as saying that the Lites are momentum cars where handling is the key because of the standard engines.
Former SK Champ Mike Christopher, brother of Ted and crew chief for Mike Jr said last fall in an interview with Matt Buckler that they moved out of Lites because he didn’t like the limitations of the SK Light crate engines.
I suggested in a string that Johnny Walker had a juiced engine cause he was so fast. Johnny and his crew chief told me I was nuts in a nice way and that they achieved success with handling. Next thing I know his engine is pulled, dyno’d and comes back within “crate” specs.
As far as your comment Joe what’s wrong with $6000. Some perspective. In 1983 I paid $2400 for a motor for my Street Stock that in todays dollars would be $5947. That’s for a reliably motor that had zero chance to run up front. The motor of choice at the time was a TA that the front runners ran that was $4000 that is $9912 in todays dollars. Freshening the motor cost me $1400 that is $3469 in 2017 dollars. That’s for a crummy 1983 Street Stock. For and SK Light I think the number is more like $5500 going in. $4200 for the crate motor plus Stafford required modifications and taxes. But even if it’s your $6000 figure I see that as progress in controlling costs.
I’d love for you guys to show me some actual proof that what Stafford lays out as rules is a bunch of bunk and that crate engine cost control, sealing engines, pulling and dynoing engines is a waste of time and not working at all. So far I see no beef. Just hearsay and gut feelings.
Tell you one thing, if this new touring SK Light deal actually comes about they will never beat a baseline number for a motor that Stafford rules mandate. They never will be able to enforce the crate rule better and the used tire thing is ridiculous.
Thanks guys for the input. Maybe someone that actually pays the bills will chime in and reduce our collective ignorance on motor costs in the SK Lights. We’re all fans and love the SK’s and Lights.
SK Lite Fan you say you aren’t making any accusations and clearly you haven’t specifically. However of the 4 top finishers in the Lights this year at Stafford two list RAD as the engine builder and two list TA. Both at the time of the listing authorized dealers for Stafford. Narducci who dominated at Waterford-RAD. Seems like the implication is RAD on the one hand is enforcing Staffords rules and on the other gouging these guys for a few more horsepower.All the extra procedures you list all valid, all costly? So who’s asking for it and who is performing the work? I’m just asking that if you conclude 4 is the answer then what are the two numbers you’re adding to get to 4.
Why can’t these rules state a stock out of the box crate or equivalent? Why can’t a guy go build his own for 2000 or buy a used crate and use it? An experienced tech staff can’t police this? Motor builders have ruined the sport.
Doug,
Calm down and reread what they BOTH said, as well as what the rules that you pasted say. The motors, as purchased from GM as sealed crate motors, are NOT what is used in the SK Lite division at Stafford. There is internal work that MUST be done to the motor to run. As with ANY internal work, there are varying degrees of effort that can be made to get the MOST out of the motor within the rules. The tighter you turn it (i.e. better detail in the work) the more it costs. That’s all they’re saying. And the reason for it is the performance inconsistency in the crate 602 as it is shipped from GM. That is their point. Donnie (RAD) and Tony (TA) have been at it a long time. They both are very good engine builders. As an example, to do a bore job adequately holding a .003″ tolerance is easier than holding a .0005″ tolerance, so it costs less. Both still meet the rules and are legal, but the tighter tolerance is WAY more effective. Taking valve springs as an out of the box set costs $X, taking and getting a set of springs that is within a tight tolerance of rate is more expensive, because you have to take the time to go through a bunch of them to test rates, and may have to get rid of some because they aren’t acceptable. Absolutely legal, but WAY more expensive. Again, and example of why.
Get it now?
Somebody get Doug a new case of corn flakes.
Rich and Joe Lajoie, thank you for understanding my point and being so kind and patient with Doug to explain the cost factor.
Doug again Sir, let me be clear again, I am making no allegations of cheating, I have the utmost admiration for Don and Tony, they both have been nothing but helpful to us. My entire point is cost and that only.
I don’t know if I totally agree with the claimed inconsistencies from one bone stock crate to the next bus thus is the reason for a claiming rule. I just strongly feel that cost in this sport is a huge factor. If it was a bone stock out of the Box crate engine untouched for everyone it would obviously be cheaper. Money saved on the engine obviously would create more competitors who could afford to compete and allow others to use the saved funds to repair there cars after wrecks and return to do battle another day.
As others have explained, there is so many time staking meticulous things the engine builders do with in the rules to gain an edge for there customers, all of Wich costs money.
I also want to thank you Doug for inspiring me to broaden my skills about the “Art of cutting and Pasting” so I did a little research and “Learned Me Self How”
Bellow is the link on Stafford site for the GM 602 crate engineyech manual. Read it at your convenience Doug and look at the detailed specifications, imagine how much time staking work these builders do to be at the legal limit to gain a few additional ponies, ponies that could put a car in Victory Lane.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://staffordmotorspeedway.com/wp-content/uploads/GM-602-CRATE-ENGINE-TECH-MANUAL.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj8l9C_kYzXAhXk34MKHU-eA1MQFghDMAA&usg=AOvVaw2DnneImTdNQ7dIVxeHoLAZ
Thanks for joining the conversation craig. I could do without the condescending calm down nonsense but it’s all good if you can help inform the string.
I shared what I knew including a relevant quote from an active team owner. You’re welcome by the way for providing an informed source. As far as I can see it’s the only one presented so far.
You guys keep telling me about what work could be done and what it could cost and I have absolutely no argument with that. Now craig you’re telling me the motors that come from GM can be completely reworked should the purchaser elect to do that. A laundry list of changes can be performed within the rules that can add small amounts of horsepower and apparently a lot of teams do it spending incredible amounts of money. Fine. Now tell me, what are your credentials craig? Who do you know that has gone through all this? Sure RAD and TA are top notch. So who’s saying they aren’t. I’ll believe you and go to bat in my small way for the purest crate engine program possible if you’re right. But so far all I’m reading including myself is 4 fans with varying degrees of ignorance and arrogance that haven’t gotten us anywhere near informed so far. So where’s the beef?
James, of course they could police it, these engines come sealed from the factory at the intake, heads timing cover and pan. The track tech guys could easily replace two of the factory bolts with drilled bolts at the intake, timing cover and pan and put track seals on it as well. It’s not a difficult concept, it’s done at countless other tracks throughout the country. I truly what I hope the touring division is proposing.
Doug, you trully know that your a mentor to many of us on here, including my self, I tell my parents every day that when I grow up some day I want to be just like Doug!!
Would you please read the GM 602 crate engine, talk to engine builders and the guys that own the Cars about how much money it takes to gain these extra ponies.
Many including our self’s have lived the movie. A division that runs a bone stock untouched out of the box crate engine is going to be cheaper, have closer competition and a bigger field, period.
Ok let me try to reset the conversation. First if I have been condescending or have sounded like a know it all I apologize. I make no pretense of current expertise. I plead guilty to being curious of the technical end of the sport having raced long ago.
So here’s are the opposing views as I see it.
SK Lite Fan, craig and Joe Lajoie believe that the crate engine for the Lights is a starting point that many teams have reworked adding thousands to the cost. That in the end competitive teams that purchase a new crate motor can end up paying between $6000 and $12000 to get a motor with the potential to win. That the additional work is completely legal withing the current rules and in many cases where RAD performs the modifications it is allowed by Stafford. That these add on’s and associated costs is preventing people from entering the division and that a new strictly crate engine rule would benefit the division.
My position is that the new crate motors have fairly modest changes made to them stipulated by Stafford mostly for tampering prevention and rule enforcement. That the goal of the Lights, Stafford and RAD is to limit engine build ups and even competition. That it is working to some degree. That authorized dealers that I believe is only RAD now are charged with assuring that the rules are followed. They also are charged with rebuilding engines to the specifications that the motors came will excepting some changes like boring the cylinders. That if they are not the ones doing the rebuilding they inspect the engines after another builder completes the work and are responsible for approving and sealing the engine.
Are these essentially the opposing views and if not what did I get wrong?
Where’s the sporting integrity in calling it a “crate engine” if you can take it apart and spend thousands of dollars to make it better?! And still be legal? And it can hardly be defined as “small” changes if you have to spend thousands to do them. If a winning car is 100% handling, plus tires, plus driver (as professed by Doug in this morning’s post) then why on earth not limit them to TRUE crate engines? Sealed at GM and low-cost-fixed. The small power differences in individual engines from GM is a non-issue, because they are 0% of the winning formula. Doug, what, are you employed by an engine builder?
First, Doug, it’s RichC, not Craig ;-). Did not mean to be condescending.
And truly, it is a matter of degree. Stock motors out of the box with re-machining within Stafford’s rules are going to be the cost of the motor + $6-12K for the work (using SK Lite’s and Joey LaJoie’s numbers. I’m not in the game any longer.). If you were to get an unsealed motor and allow ANY work, you’re talking 2-3 times the cost of the limited work. So yes, the current program definitely improves the cost equation. As an example, a 358 dirt mod motor can run close to $50K to build. All that SK Lite is saying is that reducing / eliminating the rework is going to further improve the cost equation. And yes, for some, that $6-12K could be a huge factor in whether or not they can afford entry.
As far as credentials go … how about 56 years in racing owning my own, working as crew, and driving. And I used to race with Donnie, my son ran with his son Josh, and know Tony from working on cars that he provided engines for. I have also built my own motors in other divisions, and can personally attest to what can be done WITHIN THE RULES to improve motor performance. These are NOT opposing views, they are degrees of difference. Built, crate with tweaking sealed by track, or bone stock crate sealed at the factory.
Doug, I don’t think your condescending and please know I am just kidding with you on some of my comments, I trully appreciate everyone’s input on here and thank you Shawn for your hard work on this site.
I don’t think your entirely understanding the cost and work involved in this simple rebuild, there far more involved to make more ponys then just a 0.030 over bore and it all costs money.
I also want to be clear, I think what’s Stafford is doing with Don in charge works and I’m not suggesting it change.
What I’m suggesting is this tour division go the approach of keeping costs down and to get people racing that can’t afford to be competitive at places like Stafford and there car sits in the garage.
If they take a non touched factory crate, inexpensive tires and run a limited to start schedule going to different tracks it will be the Balls! The fields will grow, cars will come out of the garages, the field will be tite, and we will all have some fun with out becoming totally broke!You run the motor a few years, sell it and buy a new one. You don’t rebuild it. Some people on here have said it will be boring because there underpowered, it won’t be, it will be awesome and you will never know the difference.
We also need to consider that they have clearly stated they don’t want to hurt other tracks and compete with them Wich is great! I know of several guys who have cars that are Frothing at the bit with this idea because they can’t afford to Run competivelky at the other tracks in the current format.
Let’s all keep an open mind and here what they have to say, I hope it gets off the ground. I would also love to hear some input here from a guy like Marc St, the tech guy from the Bowl and Thompson. If my memory serves me he is a big supporter of out of the box crate division racing and has tried to promote it.
I guess no one reads what I write. I even apologized for offending anyone and outlined the two views on the subject. Seems like you just see a word of a phrase, your mind explodes and it’s off the races.
There are two camps getserious. One that believes that Stafford in fact has no EFFECTIVE program to limit modifications to crate engines and the costs for the engines is out of control.
My position is they do enforce the rules limiting modifications and the program is to some degree working.
Now tell me getserious, where on Gods green earth do you get that I endorse out of control spending on engines?
LMAO! You have to laugh at that one Doug… “Doug, what are you employed by an engine builders?” Love it!!!!
Sorry RichC, senor moment.
OK so you know your stuff for sure so I guess between you, SK Lite fan and myself we have only one disagreement. I believe that Stafford and RAD are enforcing the rules stipulated. That new motors have seal and enforcement modifications only made to them. That the cost is $6000 or under for a motor that can run in the top 10 all other factors being equal.That the $6000 and under figure is not the exception but the rule. Finally I do not believe any new touring series wandering the countryside has the potential to enforce rules on motors greater the Stafford Speedway.
Over the next period of time when I’m near Ludlow or Plainville I will stop into RAD or TA and try to get more information on how the SK Lite program is enforced, costs for a new motor with Stafford modifications ready to race and if they will make improvements to increase the HP and what those changes could cost. I will not lie about my intent and state clearly I’m simply a fan trying to get information. Perhaps they will humor an old man. If you have any questions you would like asked please feel free to let me know.
Doug, no one is saying Stafford isn’t enforcing rules, it all comes down to cost and I can assure you, many of people have dropped $12k plus with at least one of the two builders we have mentioned on a SKL 602! It’s simple economics, the difference of cars parked in garages or racing all comes down to $, why would you not support a chance for guys / girls to go out and race in a divission they now can afford??? I can’t seem to understand your reasoning. If you don’t support it you don’t have to go watch them but I sure will!
I know you’re sincere and open minded about the tour Light series SK LiteFan I fully admit to not being objective. But I think it’s the most hair brained idea from a guy that wants to be a player again in racing and has zero chance of coming about. The idea that you can put any car on the track in any division on the cheap is absurd. And you can start with $30000 of truck and hauler. Used tires is the most hair brained thing I’ve ever heard. Drivers want to bolt on stuff they have confidence in, not question marks. The engines we’ve covered. No way they are going to be able to enforce strict rules better then Stafford in my view. No scheduling conflicts. Please, their different rules is a scheduling conflict. The pay outs. That’s a goal with no similar series to compare it to. Then there is the new 375 Pro Sportman tour to contend with already set up and already scheduling events. Ok I said it. Zero chance. Which given my record likely means they’ll be on the 2018 Stafford Schedule.
If you run a stock sealed 602 motor in a lite you will NOT win at any track in CT. On average you will need a +-$4000 rebuild to your brand new crate to even have a chance at winning. IMO tracks made a mistake to ever allow those factory seals get broken.
Doug,your right I do support it and I realize no racing is cheap, I don’t think I’ve ever implied it, we’ve blown more money in this exact divission then I care to admit. But I do realize we would be able to race allot easier more frequently if things existed like untouched crate engines and alternative tires that were cheaper. I personally know of 3 other cars just in my Town that are collecting dust that will come out and try this if it gets off the ground. I don’t know how much you really know about this sport Doug but I can tell you this, the cheapest night we ever have costs us a grand! You don’t support it that’s fine, you don’t need to Doug, but I want to explore it.
Anecdotes and self serving conclusions. Been there, done that.
It’s just one very simple question. If you go to RAD, say you want a motor that has the potential to run the top 10 what will they say? Will they say sure, it will cost you x dollars for the GM crate motor, x dollars for the Stafford sealing work and x dollars for taxes. Or will they say its complicated and it will cost you what I said previously plus thousands of dollars more to do a complete rebuild of the motor as MikeL insists is the case. I’ll see if I can find out.
Shawn, the contact # you provided for the organizer has a 386 area code, is this correct? Thanks
SK Lite Fan,
Yes it is correct.
And also, if anybody has any off topic questions concerning the operation/philosophy of the website, feel free to email me at [email protected]
With respect to your opinion I disagree but not completely, a really good setup and some determination can make it happen, the place i definitely feel the built motors are better is mid straightaway and restarts, I do feel they can help at stafford, but waterford a decent stock piece and great handling can get it done, i believe a stock piece at Stafford can be top 3 but tough to win with. My quotes for rebuilds from either builder was only 2500-3k not 4k
My engine with exception of valve springs is bone stock from RAD
Mr. Nooney thank you for weighing in.
I noted the dressing down you got from some folks a year ago when you were going to put Tony in the car for the big Light show. Your response was dignified and appreciated.
Congratulations on a good first year and against some great competition for the rookie of the year award. In my view your effort was what racing is all about and I noted the special attention you received from Buckler and Dodge in the SK Light show. Man I hope you come back next year.
I have to ask if you can answer a question. You’ve stated that you accomplished what you did with what you described as a true 602 crate motor. Can you make some observation about how the crate motor program works? Is RAD doing added work that puts the motors at 6 to 12 thousand for the guys that win? My main question is, is Staffords program to control costs by promoting and enforcing the crate motor working or not? Thanks again. Any time a driver weighs in it’s appreciated.
Doug, thank you and yes i can give some insight. When i purchased my engine the price was 5k for bone stock out of the box with necessary updates only, oil pan, oil pump pickup, and a stronger timing chain. Initially in the season all the way to Dunleavy night i had the stock valve springs, my car had turned a best of 19.4 with only two fresh tires at Sizzler open practice. Only better car that weekend was Dan Wesson who has a T/A and had 4 new tires on ran 19.2. So that being said there may be a slight advantage to the built motor. Here is the story on that. You ARE legally allowed to at any time deck and line hone the block. So when engine is brand new this is a big advantage because from what i here it can increase C/R and true up the stock out of round bores providing better ring seal. The cost of those modifications is $2500-$3000. The only other place to make hp in these crates is the timing and the carburator, tuning them on the dyno. If thats not done and someone just throws a crab and distributor setup together to slap on it could greatly hurt them. The other thing people have to consider is EVERYTHING matters in SKL racing, your setup. rotating mass, keeping your car free and not bound up, this is what people are up against, its not throw a car together and run top 3, its throw a car together well and run top 3, many of the few teams that run up front have seasoned experienced crews as well. When all 3 top 3 engines were pulled and brought to RAD earlier this season from what i here the were all legal and within 4hp of each other. They had a “built” T/A a “built RAD”, and a “favoritism” RAD engine. So with that being said and the numbers being close (i dont know what the torque numbers were) everybody is pretty close. The engine builders were simply making improvements to the engines, not illegally modifying them at high cost lime people are thinking. Its actually a fair cost for decking and honing. My engine is just getting strong in stock configuration at 15 races. Not planning on rebuilding this winter. We raced the first 8 races with a bent clip. Finished p3 once, won a heat on dunleavy night, ran p1 a few times, battled with the “built” engines, and yes you can feel those cars hound your bumper midway down the frontstretch, but if you have a good enough car you can make up for it. I was 2nd quick a few times in practice to Corey, do i feel a “engine” will benefit me or anyone else, yes, but maybe only .1-.15 of a second if its done legally.
And just one more thing Doug, i am basing that .1-.15 advantage on my experience at Waterford finale. I had as good a car as it was gonna get with a fresh clip and could only crack 14.8’s, the only faster cars had “built” engines T/A ans RAD. All as quick as 14.7’s and all had just as good a car. And this was after a talk with one if those guys, and also i font play favorites, I think both builders are great reliable people.
For the record, 10k plus 602 crates dont exist except for on dirt, tge only way it adds up to that is with, front engine accessories, clutch, flywheel, starter, carburator, spacer, headers, air cleaner, distributor, plug wires ect. My stock one totaled $7900 with all the accessories, so add $2500-$3000 on top of that. Bada Bing you got a 10k plus crate. That hopefully sums it up for everyone.
Thanks Geoff for providing hard numbers from an actual participant.
Just so I get my apples to apples correct every engine needs the associated parts so leaving them out it looks something like this. The $5000 you paid plus $3000 for optional, completely legal build ups. With regard to this string I am clearly wrong is assuming Stafford strictly limits crate modification and the cost can be prohibitive. That is not to say as you have the $5000 package can’t be reliable and competitive, it just isn’t the best available under the rules. So now I have a simple question or questions about the topic of this article. Do you believe a strictly crate format for a series is enforceable. Would you have an interest in the tour under the right conditions and could it change your focus from a weekly series to a tour? Thanks again Geoff and have a great day.
I believe the touring series should strictly follow Stafford Waterford Thompson crate rules with the exception of Quick Change rears should be mandated. And also the exception of the tour take off tires
My reasoning for the quick change rule for strictly touring series would be reduction of cost for teams overall and ease of setup change over between tracks. Cost much more to own many straight rears vs quick change, however the tour series rules should not effect weeky series current rules.
Geoff, the Tour has required quick change rears for a couple season already.
From the 2017 Rule Book:
“A. Only aluminum or magnesium quick change rear end center sections
equipped with aluminum or magnesium side bells will be permitted.”
Now the wall of rear axles is worthless.
The Stafford rule mandating a 10 inch ring gear clearly would have to be changed for a SK Light Touring series to make changes for all the different distant tracks easier. Meaning right out of the gate there is a conflict with Stafford and based on their history would not likely change to accommodate a series intruding on their space. In fact based on the Street Stock gear ratio I don’t see Stafford lifting a finger to make it easier for their weekly teams to cross over to anything.
Thanks Geoff for all you help. I have a bunch more questions but I know I’ve probably exhausted your good will. Here’s wishing you a successful off season and the hope for greater success next year.
“He goes and buys a 602 motor for $4,500, plus another $4,000 of bolt on parts, and he can go racing and have some fun.”
Supposedly for all the modified chassis’s sitting around just waiting for a cost effective series to allow them to get out and race. Most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read regarding a racing division. Any implication the you could put it all together for under $10000 is absurd. In my view.
we race the “crate mod” division at Riverhead and I feel if they ran similar rules to Riverheads division then it would take out all the bs going on about opening the motor and it being a 6k-12k extra investment, considering they consider the engine basically a gernade. The only division I know is a true crate division. See link below page 4
http://www.riverheadraceway.com/rules/2017/2017%20RMC%20Rules.pdf
Doug, why would you want to change the rule on the 10” ring gear in a QC rear? The 3 CT tracks have that rule in place for both the SK & SKL divisions. Why allow the 8” ring gear which is definitely a performance advantage and will cost the competitors more money? We are supposed to be controlling costs here.
I said it earlier and I agree with Geoff, QC rears should be mandatory in this division. Just to run Stafford, Thompson and Waterford you need two, a 4:11 for Stafford and Thompson and a 4:62 for Waterford. Can you imagine how many more you may need for other venues that may be on the list? A set of QC gears are around $100 – $150. A new straight rear is around $2,500.
Just my opinion.
Hey Long Island, you guys are doing it the right way. That is where the CT tracks started with their SKL 602 rules. Now they are allowing the stock version and the built version where you have to add additional weight to the car. Out of control thanks to the engine builders.
Just to clarify my previous post, you need 2 straight rears 1 for Stafford/Thompson and 1 for Waterford. Sorry about that.
I’ll differ to you humphrey on the rear issue I read the SK Light rule 10 inch ring rear provision to exclude all quick change rears. I support whatever the racers want and if Geoff thinks a quick change is the way to go who am I to say otherwise.
As I understand it and you can tell me if I’m wrong Stafford does not allow quick change rears. My point is that if this new SK Light series gets off the ground they’ll have to allow QC rears to accommodate the different tracks. There’s the rube. Stafford’s Street Stock gear rules are so out of touch with Thompson and Waterford and they show no interest in promoting crossover. What are the odds they’ll ever allow a rule change that will make it easier for their teams to go other places. Clearly I’m behind the curve on the rear issue so any help understanding it would be appreciated.
See this is why this forum can be so interesting and thanks Long Island guy for checking in.
Those Riverhead RMC rules are brutal. Riverhead controls the engines completely right down to selling used engines. No rebuilds allowed as I read it. That actually is what GM suggests in the crate engine specifications. They say the motor is good for two seasons and after that it should be sold to hot rodders not rebuilt for racing. On the other hand Riverhead is getting 12 to 15 cars as I see it in the RCM features so is it promoting better car counts?
I feel a little better informed now on the Stafford SK Light engine rules. I was wrong. Stafford is not strictly restricting crate engine modifications. Nor are they opening the bottle and letting the genie out on build ups. They’re hedging. Giving the engine builders an added revenue stream with modifications including decking and line boring. But not getting so carried away that a guy like Geoff can’t be competitive with a stock crate motor and savvy handling skills. Am I wrong? If not I think it stinks. Those crate motors are quality and reliable engines bone stock. The two to three thousand dollars modifications create haves and have nots and is opposite of a level playing field. In my view.
Just to clarify, the tour series rules have nothing to do with weekly series racings at any CT track besides making tour series cars universal so if a driver wants to run weekly they can still do so with absolutely minimal changes. The quick change should and i believe will remain 10″, 8″ ring gear is illegal in weekly divisions, one straight rear is needed for thompson and stafford, and one for waterford, current weekly rules are 10″ ring gear quick change or straight, which would make weekly and touring division rules universal so it shouldnt hurt any car counts.
2018 Stafford SK Light rules
Ok I’m lost. Quick change rears allowed but must be magnetic steel.
“E. Only magnetic steel axles, bearings, and axle housings are permitted. ”
“GEAR RULE – 4.12 Maximum for straight rears, 4.26 Maximum for Quick Change rears. Rear ends and components will be weighed as part of post-race tech. “
Geoff, please just tell me one thing. Division teams usually gravitate to the similar parts. What is the rear of choice for the SK Lights?
Straight
But there has been both quick changes and straights in victory lane this year, to each their own, quick changes are just better and easier to come by for touring series purposes while still being legal for weekly racing. Straights are said to be faster due to less rotating mass which is why quick changes have slightly different gear rule
Only other advantage of a straight is less rear percentage and lighter overall= put weight where you want it. All i have to say, hope this educated you well doug
Geoff,
You not only answered the question I asked but the ones I didn’t for fear of asking too many. It all makes perfect sense now. The lighter weight, the gear ratio difference and the fact that there is no conflict between the proposed series and established track rules. The fog has lifted.
Thanks again
If the car runs on the same track, then a straight rear make sense. A straight is lighter than a quick change, less unsprung weight, and provides more latitude to locate weight on chassis.
If the car runs at numerous tracks requiring different gears, or different gear rules, then the owner can rebuild a straight for each track/race (no), or have an inventory of straight axles with gears for each track, or use a quick change.
The quick change also absorbs a little more horsepower.
Doug,
You are correct no rebuilds allowed you read it correctly. The division at Riverhead seems to be the most strict out of all the mod classes in NE. If this new touring division followed the Riverhead rules it would IMO make it more affordable for people. With what you guys had said up to 12k for a built motor at Stafford you could in reality get about 6 yrs out of that 12k if you had to buy a new engine every 2 years to compete in this new division. Also there is a tire rules too I dont know if you read that far into what I posted. But yes you are correct the rules are brutal and Riverhead has a lot of control but I think it helps the racing a bit considering the engines aren’t supposed to be opened
Nobody is spending 12K for a built motor, if somebody spends $5,000 on the base engine and then 3000 for the only allowed updates and another four thousand and accessories including carburetor clutches flywheels front accessories water pumps all that fun stuff starters headers yeah it can add up to 12 K if you’re buying every single thing top-notch but there is nobody spending $12,000 on a crate engine build alone and I don’t know where anybody is getting this information. As for the touring Series rules yes they should allow for Stafford sealed engines and Waterford and Thompson sealed engines in both configurations otherwise the touring series is not going to get on its feet because it’s going to force everybody to go buy brand new engines when they’re already invested. When I first talked to Joe Lewandowski we had discussed that they will let the honed and decked engines run until they need to be rebuilt with a weight penalty and then they can buy a new engine at any time, otherwise car counts will suffer tremendously at first in this touring series and it will never happen
Think about it this way as well if monadnock cars want to compete in the series they can also run their crate engines with the exception of they will need to purchase a two-barrel carburetor and a set of the pro shocks now if Stafford Waterford and Thompson cars don’t already have a quick change they need to purchase a quick change the total of a brand new quick-change versus a total of a brand new set of shocks and a brand new carburetor is about the same money so it would cost about the same for everybody to go racing in this series initially so actually the series seems very fair and if people would leave rules alone it’ll be alright
Long Island guy,
Saw the tire rules and Stafford uses a similar system of credits.
I think we’re talking crate plus $3000 for the engine build ups not counting the parts that all cars must include and the $12000 appears bogus. Nonetheless the Riverhead rules are nifty for being simple on the one hand and iron fisted with regard to touching the engines. And why not. They’re great engines. Valve springs and valve float may be an issue on the bigger tracks but otherwise there have been very few complaints of reliability. I personally am disappointed as a Stafford fan of decades that they won’t restrict the changes with gusto like Riverhead. Car handling and set ups are complex enough without having to worry about expensive modifications with minimal results.
Doug,
The Riverhead rule about not allowing rebuilds was exactly what the Stafford rules were for the inaugural season in 2006. If something happens to the engine sell it to a hot-rodder. Same words. And it made sense and was a good idea until GM made parts changes to the crates and it wasn’t a level playing field anymore. The can of worms was opened.
Joe,
I get at the start Stafford had the strict policy for using the crate engines. What I don’t get is how GM parts changes caused Stafford to allow thousands of dollars of additional work to the engines. Can you be more specific?
You’re blowing my mind Geoff. This series is supposed to promote rules that will encourage less expensive racing. And you’ve said yourself you are running a mostly stock crate engine. But you also take a realistic stance that going in exceptions will have to be made during a transition period to encourage more participation. That would be letting the big spenders bolt on weight and join the party.You’re also calculating costs for participants at different tracks and finding balance in the changes they would have to make. That’s some pretty far sighted and sophisticated thinking. You’d make a great ambassador for the new series. But I’m going to borrow Joe’s expression. Sounds like a can of worms to me and trying to get to a level playing field by allowing a totally unlevel playing field and accommodating the big money guys going in. Interesting indeed.
GM Performance went to a lighter piston and different ring design. It made a big difference from the original crates.
I try to respect everybody’s opinions, I strongly encourage people interested in the series to go to the Meeting/Seminar whatever at Hoosier on the 19th, any questions and concerns will be discussed there id imagine. Other than that I quote the Beatles “there will be an answer, let it be” And hopefully maybe theres a chance something great may come of it
I honestly have no issues racing against any of the cars I’m racing against “built” engines or stock I think the field of cars is pretty good and I don’t think there’s anybody out there that can’t be beat. This is a tough division and that’s what makes it fun. As for the definition of a built engines I believe that definition to be a blueprinted block Pistons rods porting and polishing valve train work intake work crank work, cam, the full package. Therefore “built” engines in SK light racing dont exist, only blueprinted blocks and improved timing sets. Goodnight. Im worn out on this and have nothing left for input. Anyone who wants to chat ill be attending the meeting regardless if i eun in the series or not, if it actually even happens
There is the stock crate package and there is the one where fairly expensive additional work is done. Built up not accurate. Fine. Call it crate plus 3K, buttercups, doikus, whatever. Just agree that there is a difference and what to call it. With regard to the meeting Geoff you accomplished two things. Educating people that may attend on conditions that exist now. And educating ticket buying fans. I know I’m grateful.
So Jeff, you say a built SKL engine does not exist? Really? Where are you getting your info from? Can’t wait for this answer cause you and I are going to agree to disagree…….
Mr. Nooney, thank-you for the “SK Lights 101” class! It’s always a plus when I can pick up some technical info on racecars. Many times it gives me a much better understanding of what I see at the track. Thanks again! I hope this series develops; I’d like to see a Stafford-sized SKL field at some of the other area tracks. Or maybe at Stafford’s weekend events, have the weekly SKL’s on Saturday as usual, and have the SKL series run Sunday.
I think Geoff has retired from the string. Geoff was simply arguing that a true built engine does not exist in the Lights. That the changes allowed under the rules that he referred to above are not a true and complete built motor in the traditional sense.
” When i purchased my engine the price was 5k for bone stock out of the box with necessary updates only, oil pan, oil pump pickup, and a stronger timing chain. Initially in the season all the way to Dunleavy night i had the stock valve springs, my car had turned a best of 19.4 with only two fresh tires at Sizzler open practice. Only better car that weekend was Dan Wesson who has a T/A and had 4 new tires on ran 19.2. So that being said there may be a slight advantage to the built motor. Here is the story on that. You ARE legally allowed to at any time deck and line hone the block. So when engine is brand new this is a big advantage because from what i here it can increase C/R and true up the stock out of round bores providing better ring seal. The cost of those modifications is $2500-$3000.
At 2 to 3 grand the motor might not meet the strict definition of a “built motor” but it sure as heck is a build up of the engine.
Humphry, if they do thats sad for them, because nobody ran away with anything, shame on them.
Lol, they should be called “improved crates”, im starting to have doubts about the series taking off, Im thinking the only, good way to do it is this, Quick change mandated, non adjustable shocks with MSRP under $200, 4 brl carb mandated (to spice it up a hair with more power but just a hair), 100lb weight penalty to any “improved crate”, that would include (any modification other than the oil pump pickup and pan excluding the standard replacement of valve springs (must be gm springs or you put 100lbs on the car))
Second Fast Eddy on SK Light 101. A good class.
Improved crates it is for this string anyway.
Totally not digging the 4 barrel idea unless area tracks adopt it and Stafford anyway would never do it. Changing intakes when moving from track to series competition, messing with seals. A recipe for mischief, confusion and distracting back and forth tuning issues. Am I paying attention professor Nooney cause I believe that is your philosophy is it not.
Throttle response with a 4 barrel would be “spice” for drivers. For we fans I would suggest that spice is 3 or 4 cars under a blanket on the final lap maneuvering for the win. That does happen now at Stafford and is the reason I believe that the Lights should be the second division and get second division money. Not happening in 2018 obviously but fans love the Lights.
Reason im saying 4 brl is the 602 stock have a 4brl intake, we bolt on an adapter for the 3 ct tracks, riverhead and monadnock both run 4 brl. It would spark more interest all together, fans, drivers, ect.
And btw im not suggesting any rule be changes for the 3 ct tracks 2brl rule, this is strictly tour ideas
Roger that. It’s in the rules and I didn’t recall it.
Still seems like a 4 barrel would magnify the advantages for an ‘improved crate” engine if they allow them to run the new series with added weight but you’re the expert.
Jeff, I am really surprised you don’t know what you are running against in your division that is 100% legal by Stafford rules ie. built up SKL engines. Or maybe I should say I am surprised you are not aware of what performance/durability enhancements you can do to your bone stock engine unless you just won’t spend the money.
And BTW, NFW on the 4 barrel carbs. It is not saving money when you need two to run the CT SLK circuit and this new tour. Let’s just standardize all the rules so everyone can play in the sandbox without going broke!
Humphry, i just dont feel the need yet to re”build” my engine, its just starting at 15 races to feel a little better, I do know what im up against and RAD suggested i rebuild because of what your saying, ive lead some races, been fast overall, i could have won 2 in a row at stafford and heres why i didnt, car broke loose with 4 to go and i got freight trained, and the next week me and prucker had a great battle, and i got beat on the green white checker restart because i bounced it off the rev box and finished 3rd. I didnt lose either race because of a built engines. I got beat because rookie mistakes, would a re”built”engine help, probally a little, hey and if they are that big an advantage like your saying i probally wouldve won 3 races this year. I had a great car this year amd next year itll only get better, the new clip turned it into a new animal. As for carburators id love to own a 4brl anyway so i can travel to different tracks, and if the tour doesnt accommodate anyone but Ct drivers its not going to succeed
I personally would love to see an engine builder jump on here and voice the dyno chart readings between a “built” and stock engine.
OK humphry I’m not above groveling. I’m begging with you, pleading. If an actual driver/owner enters the comment section using his actual name to give us his take on certain aspects of the sport we love could you please do him the courtesy to use his proper name.
Bottom line is the series is gonna do its best to accommodate everyone because they want this series to happen, the problem that is faced is there is gonna be ALOT of disagreements and its going impossible to reach a conclusion that everyone (drivers/car owners) is happy with.
Here is gonna be the biggest issue
Straight rear vs quick change = weight penalty? Or different max ratio allowance?
Carburator 2brl vs 4brl = weight penalty? Keep in mind your gonna need different gear rules or RPM limits for each type of carb.
Shock $ rule vs a mandated certain shock rule, ok so i can send out my $200 shock and have it tricked out? Oh you mean i gotta buy shocks?
Re”built” engine vs stock engine (stock distributor, timing set, valve springs, everything) = Weight penalty.
This is what the series is up against.
THIS IS RACING, RACING COST $$ NO MATTER WHAT, NOBODY WILL EVER BE 100% SATISFIED.
Hoping for the best but its gonna be challenging and people need to be willing to work with the series or they will be the death of a good idea.
Doug, take a chill pill. I did not misspell his name intentionally, he did not seem concerned, why should you? We were having a nice conversation so please don’t stir the pot when it is absolutely not necessary! Thank you.
Geoff, my point is if there is standardized rules it makes it benificial to everyone. The less you have to invest/change the opportunity will be greater to attract competitors from SKL ranks. Where this is heading is having a tour with several different engine packages that is going to be a nightmare to enforce. The rear QC vs. non QC is easy, just like now a different ratio to make up the difference between the 2.
Yea, I would like to have a 650 4 bbl also, but I would rather spend the money elsewhere. Heck there are no stock 2 bbl’s out there anyway, and if anyone believes that, you aren’t paying attention to what goes on in tech and the conversations between the tech inspectors and engine builders.
I will be at the meeting and watch the fireworks, should be interesting!
I don’t know about you humphry but when I make spaghetti sauce I stir it cause that’s is what one does to make good sauce.
You know that smarty you knew in school that always said your name wrong to make fun of you or to be a pain in the butt. I sure do. Maybe you didn’t correct him either cause you figured he was embarrassing himself or simply not worth the effort. I think your worth the effort humphry.
It was informative and had a productive flow until you chimed in asking some guy named Jeff who never commented and asking questions like this:
“Jeff, I am really surprised you don’t know what you are running against in your division that is 100% legal by Stafford rules ie. built up SKL engines. Or maybe I should say I am surprised you are not aware of what performance/durability enhancements you can do to your bone stock engine unless you just won’t spend the money.”
At the least you aren’t reading the comments and at the worst you’re just being that pain in the butt in school with the sarcastic, condescending tone . The guy that chooses not to notice names in big bold letters or is too lazy to deal with a different spelling. You know, a smarty pants.
Thanc yoo humbfrey for your time,
Dug
“Heck there are no stock 2 bbl’s out there anyway, and if anyone believes that, you aren’t paying attention to what goes on in tech and the conversations between the tech inspectors and engine builders.”
Fine Humphry. I’m assuming you are paying attention to the conversations regarding the carbs and have inside information. So other then dot connecting what do you actually have first hand information about? Where are they getting the tricked out 2 barrels, what are they doing to them and what information are the drivers and tech inspectors exchanging?
Sorry humphry. You’re right I was bored, wanted to needle you and no good comes from that. I want you to be a sincere person that is respectful of competitors and asks interesting questions to illicit answers we can all benefit from. Demonstrating you know more then them just chases them away. But I get it now. If you want to call a zebra a horse I should mind my own business and not remind you it’s a zebra.
You’re convinced you’re right on the 2 barrels. I don’t know you are right but suspect you are. And I’m pretty sure since there are so many different ways to tune and trick out the stock 2 barrel it is an area where the truth may be hard to come by. Any thoughts Geoff?
Y’all gotta remember this is the same Joe Lewandoski that, when he was at Riverside Park Speedway, dropped a healthy late model division in favor of starting a truck division. When the track closed 2 years later they wound up being a class without a track.
Looks like Doug needs fresh corn flakes.
OK, back to business. We got some great information on 602 crates engines, the modifications that Stafford mandates and the optional work allowed within the rules. The information on rear ends was outstanding. Geoff’s take on what he would like to see the new series incorporate will be nice to compare to what they actually do if they launch in 2018. Would be nice to hear what the transmission of choice is and how much the high rollers put into modifications allowed or otherwise. And the 2 barrels. Is there mischief afoot there.
For anyone interested youtube has a video showing an informal walk through of the RAD shop in Ludlow with a shot of the dyno they use. Also check out Matt Bucklers cable shows on youtube “Stories from Victory Lane” including episode 41 from 2 year ago with Shawn C as guest. Out of date but some interesting observations about Late Models and touring modifieds that hold up today.
If you subscribe to Area Auto Racing News there is a great article in the October 31 issue on page 4 about this new division and what Lewandowski envisions it to be. 30 lap feature, $1,000 to win, $200 to take the green, Riverhead 602 rules for engines.
Doug, I will get into the carb deal in a bit.
From this week’s AARN Lenny Sammons column:
They plan on using Riverhead engine rules, meaning one guy – Randy’s Performance Center will be doing all the engines. $4500 for 602 crate + oil pan, pickup and sealing it.
No rebuilds or repairs.
Holley 650 carb.
They will initially let modified crates run but they will be adding weight.
Tires will be Tour take-offs – $100 a set. Lewandoski said he is going to clean, durometer and tread depth all tires before matching them in sets of 4. When a driver picks a pill for handicapping he will also be picking a lottery # that will determine the set of 4 tires he’ll race that evening. Teams will also be allowed to buy a left and right rear spare in case they get a flat.
Spec Sunoco fuel.
Lewandoski will charge the track promoter a $200 per car base that will go in purse. He will add an additional $1500.
30 laps – $1000 to win, $200 to start.
April through September they will only run Wednesdays or Sundays.
He already has a race director, 2 tech guys, and a pit steward.
Stafford, Thompson and Monadnock are not interested in participating.
Stafford not being interested isn’t surprising. Thompson you would think would jump on this. Nobody shows up for whatever races they do schedule for the lites, besides the world series. Seems like they would want to give something else a try. Would make sense for Waterford to be on board. They already race on Wednesday’s.
Well thank you humphry and especially Joe for sharing and summarizing that article. That was bloody well outstanding.
In another string rich passed on the rumor that the maintenance staff at the Speedbowl will be working through the winter leaving it the new series only potential venue in Ct. And considering Waterfords weekday XCar series maybe the best fit as a headliner perhaps?
Using Riverheads iron fisted crate only engine rules but bolting on weight for the improved engines. Also mentioned by and endorsed by Geoff a base line crate guy. Any thoughts on how that will go over with others?
To humpfry and Joe. Three of the best tracks in New England not interested. Was there any mention of tracks that could be possible sites for races? Do you know of any that run weekday and/or Sunday events that would be a good fit for the new series. Did the article mention sites?
Has anyone heard if the new 375 Pro Sportsman series unveiled at Waterfords year end event has been mentioned as a natural companion series to the new Light series?
I thought the used tire deal was not workable. Wrong. That’s a lot of work and my hats off to trying it. Has anyone ever heard of a track or series ever doing all that work to quality control and sell used tires for the purpose of restraining costs for a series anywhere?
Stafford out. Why would they be in having a thriving Light division. My question is will they have the Modifiedz Night next year and will the new series cars come there to compete? Having seen it last year it was successful from a car count and crowd standpoint and new blood could put it into the epic category. Hey how about this flight of fancy. 27 cars took the green last year and I forget how many came. How about 40 plus next year and A and B main events. In an offhanded way could it not be considered the first event of the new series and arguably their Daytona 500. Carried away, right?
Doug, the way I see it there is not an engine builder out there (and I applaud them because that is what they are paid to do) that does not operate in the grey area of the rules. It is very difficult to create rules without grey areas no matter how you try.
Another thing you may find interesting is the seals that are affixed to the engine by the builders to certify they are within the posted rules. Go on line and you can purchase the exact same seal, numbered as you specify which makes it easy to remove and replace any seal on your engine with an identical one to the one that was removed with the same number. This is not a difficult process but what really sucks is the engine builder would never know the engine was tampered with after it left the shop. If the engine was confiscated and tore down the engine builder would be the one that felt the heat which would not be fair. The same goes for the crack bolts that come on the GM crate engine, they can be purchased on line so they can easily be removed and replaced without anyone ever knowing.
I am just pointing out how easy it is to do something that would never be detected and I am by no means accusing anyone of doing it.
My opinion is take the seals off, create a set of rules and put the engines through the same tech as every other division out there goes through. Again only my opinion.
Like the carbs humphry I suspect everything you say is true. The only fly in the ointment is the dyno. Stafford says pull it, it goes to RAD and comes in out of acceptable parameters and you’re out. No one to my knowledge has failed in 2017 cause it would have been big news. Johnny Walker in the Dares apprised us of his testing as it was happening and he passed. Excepting Walker in the Dares, no one in the Dares, LLM and SKL comes from the rear to the front to win. I don’t believe there is any significant motor cheating from the on track competition I see in those divisions. Mike Christopher moved Mike Jr out of the Lights so fast simply because of enforcement and the view that the motors were unresponsive. Call me naive or stupid or irrelevant but that’s the way I feel.
I agree with the consensus. And that is iron clad Riverhead type rules. Modest safety and reliability changes, no rebuilds. Ever. Stafford doesn’t do that, I love Stafford and wish they would. They won’t. After seeing the RAD walk through I gleaned that Stafford is a small part of their base of business rather then the dominant customer I thought they were. My completely uniformed view; after seeing the RAD video and TA drop out as an authorized Stafford dealer so easily the added services are the price Stafford pays to keep RAD on board. Supplying stock crate motors, modest changes and nothing more and they’d be out as well.
No one is paying attention to the 375 Pro Sportsman series. Cheat your brains out on the motor, trans and rear all you want but over 375 HP on the chassis dyno and you’re out. Anyone want to chip in for a mobile dyno and start a business doing chassis dyno testing at local tracks?
And yes humphry I know, too wordy. I agree.
I remember when they let those trucks race at Waterford for a while after riverside closed.
Doug, this is the first time in the history of the SKL’s they have dynod engines. And why? Because of T/A gate and everything ended up just fine for RAD & T/A after the dyno test. If what happened had never happened I find it hard to believe they would have pulled engines and we all would be going along fat, dumb and happy.
The best dyno there is is the race track. That is where you find out exactly what you have, numbers really mean nothing to me. If you can’t put the power to the track, you are going nowhere. If the car can’t turn left and roll the corners, you are going nowhere. And don’t forget the driver and his talent level. It is called a “package”. The best engine in the world is not going to make up for anything above if you don’t have the entire package.
I’m trying to process and respect your point of view humphry. Is this correct? You are in favor of canning the crate engine concept and going back to built engines and strong tech inspection. You don’t believe dyno tests are accurate nor do they have any place in racing rule enforcement. You don’t have any real evidence but based on your experience and common sense you feel strongly that engine builders are not the answer but part of the problem. And the track or series inspection is the only antidote to rampant cheating that you’re fairly sure exists now. Finally you believe the engine is only one part of a complex web that determines on track performance and that track performance should be the only starting point to determining if rules violations are in play and inspection needed. Am I getting that correct?
Someone wants to start a SK style modified tour and SK drivers or teams can even get 10 Modifieds to the North/South shootout?
Doug, you remind me of my boss who over analyzes everything. I will break this down sentence by sentence of your last post.
Sentence 1; I am advocating for a crate class with strong specific rules, strong tech inspections and strong concequences for violators.
Sentence 2; The dyno tells you two basic pieces of info; horse power and torque. It also shows where these numbers fall into the RPM curve. The dyno is not the be all and end all it is just a tool in the tool box.
Sentence 3; Absolutely, they are the ones that have been a key factor in spiraling the current SKL rules out of control.
Sentence 4; Absolutely, not saying it is rampant however I believe there is rule bending going on.
Sentence 5; My comment about track performance is something I interjected which is true however, has nothing to do with rules or inspection.
The tech staff for this series; Mark St. Hilaire has my respect, Everett Marvin, biggest cheater there was when he raced so this should be interesting. But I guess if your going to try to catch a cheater hire one to do it.
OK them humphry. You’re saying that dyno’s have no place in rules enforcement, you endorse crate engines but don’t trust engine sealing as a trustworthy enforcement tool nor do you trust engine builders to strictly go by track or series rules. These are all tools that tech inspectors rely on but you tell them no it’s not good enough and to do their jobs breaking down and checking engines. You also have referred to cheating you have no evidence that exists and refer to TA gate without stating any specific event to earn them that slur.
Tell you what humphry you basically have expressed an opinion based on suspicion, innuendo and nothing of substance. You concluded that certain procedures in widespread and growing use nation wide like sealing and dyno testing don’t meet with your approval based on nothing more then your feelings. Feelings that are generally completely counter to current trends in racing , that always assume the worst in competitors and engine builders and generally reflect your nasty, contrary nature. One that fosters a perpetual tug or war, that is completely devoid of an once of good will or deference to others opinions and that seeks to marginalize anyone that you don’t agree with an. Fair enough.
Dareal said:
“As an engineer that has been involved in these sort things, my advice is do not speculate, just wait for the report.
This is far different than post race tech checking for travel limited shocks, thin walled drive shafts, light weight carbs, and flux capacitors. This is big league, the likes of which most of you have never seen.”
See that humphry. Dareal the engineer says you’re too superficial get the true meaning of tragic unexpected loss of life. The engineer with the constant juvenile references to Corn Flakes referring back to the pee in them you loved so much. No problem with any of that aye humphry. Enable the heck out of him, it’s go right big guy. The stooges are back.
Seriously does anyone believe that this guy Dareal with all his petty nonsense and simplistic plagiarism and repetition of the most idiotic themes and taunts, beating them to death is any kind of engineer other then the train set in him basement.
Remember Melissa Fifield. Great article a year ago on her and the rabid dogs including humphry and the “engineer” attacked her unmercifully. Can’t wait to unpack that bit of history. Stay tuned.
I am done, be at the meeting on the 19th, should be interesting…………
Humphry 12/18/16
“Unfortunately the SKL engine rules are out of control. From what I heard to build a competitive engine you are looking at close to 15k for a lousy 602 crate engine. This is not what this division was intended to be. ”
Off, off, off, off, off intelligent statement.
It gets better.
How much of a sycophant is humphry? Months of quotes from DaPhonyEngineer trashing and mocking TC . Not just racing dislike but utter contempt for him as a competitor and person. And DaPhonyEngineer who loves trashing Trump but mimics his unfocused, petty, arrogant, know it all style offers a few lines to humphry and you can imagine the tears on his keyboard. In the same string I offer humphry a self effacing, humble, deferential response to his question and get spit in the face.
You can fix ignorant with knowledge for those that can learn. You can’t fix stupid.
Tell me all my fellow former drivers and current drivers as well. Have you ever heard of “coasting ” through the turns?
Here’s DaPhonyEngineers theory on turning.
“Rolling the turns comes from handling, not power. These cars have far more power to overpower the handling capability in a turn.
Art, they are coasting through a turn, foot is not in the throttle in a turn. The better the car turns, the faster it can coast. But they are clearly not in the throttle in a turn, not usually until late apex or exit. Some very fast cars aren’t getting back into the throttle till darn near onto the straight. Watch the exhaust… the engines are after firing as shown by the flames coming out the exhaust. That tells the driver is off the throttle. That starts on the end of the straight until some time after the apex, usually. Pay close attention during qual when there is one car at a time on the track, you can hear when the throttle is on or off. Pay close attention to ALL the cars. Huge differences.
It is important to not lose speed in a turn, obviously. Because lost speed results in acceleration load that the engine has to overcome to get the car back up to speed in the straight. Smooth is fast, and coasting smooth through the turns while losing as little speed is fast. And uses less gas.”
Coasting and watching the exhaust. A real engineer…………..NOT!
You can fix ignorance with knowledge but you can’t fix stupidity when the ignorant aren’t smart enough to know what they don’t know.
Doug admitted: “And you’re right, I type too much and say too little.”
DaPhonyEngineer
You’re pathetic. I do my homework. You’re a manipulative. lazy poser. I have how long until the Ice Breaker, a long time. And you are my single focus. My rule of amnesia with every new string. Gone. You and your ridiculous history of nonsense is my only focus. You’re an empty, manipulative pathetically insecure person and I am relentless.
You may be “coasting” with the single quote showing good will and deference I extended to your stooge humphry but I learned unlike you. You’re my perpetual enemy that champions ignorance, arrogance and emptiness. You’re lazy and of no substance and it is my privilege to expose you as such. My new theme, relentless.
Amnesia is gone. Relentless in exposing DaPhonyEngineer is my passion. Any string, any time and with a boat full of your ridiculous quotes and Trump like persona.
Well this explains dareals knowledge of the speedbowls grandstands, he’s an engineer.
You paying attention humphry. The guy you shed tears for Christopher your hero DaPhonyEngineer has trashed for at least a year. How dumb are your aye there humphry?
rich, I went by the 🚽 the other day. Couple cars there in the parking lot.
They had a message on the sign that they are looking forward to 2018. So all must be well.
Party on!!! 🏴
Agree
Cant we all just get along lol
How soon before the 🚽 gets another 🏴?
From the Town?
Another scandal?
Mr Nooney, I so appreciate your input but I must disagree with you. There are people who have spent over $10k on these excluding bolt on components. Much more is being done within the rules besides line boring and decking. Extensive flow bench work can be done, different can grinds that just meet the 5 degree tollerence,
Mr Nooney, I so appreciate your input but I must disagree with you. There are people who have spent over $10k on these excluding bolt on components. Much more is being done within the rules besides line boring and decking. Extensive flow bench work can be done, different can grinds that just meet the 5 degree tollerence,
Geez… here’s a series that is supposed to be low cost, but folks are spending out of control. It looks like major league sports such as hockey, baseball, etc. where owners go nuts bidding for stars. In doing so, they drive salaries and payrolls up to astronomical levels, then cry that costs are out of control. The owners did it and do it to themselves.
It is what it is unfortunately