Copyright © 2024 · News Child Theme on Genesis Framework · WordPress · Log in
| Cookie | Duration | Description |
|---|---|---|
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-analytics | 11 months | This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". |
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-functional | 11 months | The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". |
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-functional | 11 months | The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". |
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-necessary | 11 months | This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". |
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-others | 11 months | This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. |
| cookielawinfo-checkbox-performance | 11 months | This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". |
| viewed_cookie_policy | 11 months | The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. It does not store any personal data. |
Unlock with Patreon
The last 2/3rds of this article is literally “copy and paste” from a previous interview….how about something new?
Hey Mark, Hard to write something new when nobody will talk to you and nothings happened.
This update does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about things moving forward anytime soon. Still no comment from Mr. Whitney? That is just not right IMO.
The article provide updated information with value. Inaction is news. The building department says they’ve heard nothing from the track as of now. It mentioned the scheduling of tour events. It addressed the discussion of the new stands being mandatory and it seems like the Hoagland is a little squishy on that. I get the the guys who’s main track is the Speedbowl want to know what’s going on. And teams sure want to know so they can plan. But geez Louise it’s the holidays. Relax, have an eggnog, finish wrapping the presents. It’s annoying the disconnect between the media and the track officials but it’s their business. Now come late January, early February and there is no word that’s the time to really wonder what their end game is.
And don’t forget humphry’s drive by updates that are always interesting to hear.
What a dumb article. It’s not after January 1 as previously stated. That would be a good time to do a follow up article or talk to George and see when he’s going to file the permit
What they do at the track is none of your business post something more important..
Well, it looks like Waterford will try to open in as-is condition.
There’s only four months to go from plans to permits to construction to completion.
Four months.
Good luck with that.
Hey Bill, go buy bunch of the Speedbowl gift cards. Give them out for holiday stocking stuffers.
Interesting how the ‘bowl is turning down free publicity. Nobody should turn down free publicity. Hope the Speedbowl gets back to RaceDayCT and let’s them know about the new grandstands and other work.
I guess da real will be spending new years eve in the parking lot at the bowl to verify there will be activity at 12:01 am Jan1. My question to the building dept is …if there was some type of permit presently in place for “repairs” to be made that have been ongoing ,perhaps track ownership,management believes that whatever permits or requirements are present at this time would be sufficient for the repairs/replace to start ??. ok ..ok replacement is different than repairs but lets go ahead and cross hairs here .. lawyers could argue the language or the permit process for days, months ,years ..LOL .who needs the NFL when we have race day ct and all this entertainment!!!
I am sure the all knowing dareal construction P+Z/zoning/legal guru will let us know ..PS I live in a beach community where P+Z zoning involves almost impossible requirements for business and homeowners alike. believe me this will get done. I also witnessed crews over the past 3 1/2 weeks jack/raise a large house excavate and pour a concrete foundation place home down on foundation in December!! .. oh god a miracle??
Worked for a conteactor in the Carolinas a few years ago.we did a 20,000 seat venue in a week of 10’s.so for da are you for real and others who question timing……it can be completed fairly quickly.i remember also works ng on the Mohegan sun project.you know that big casino in the area.absolutley,no infastructure to completion in a short amount of time.including removal and blasting of rock and ledge.roads etc.its based on money and who’s going to perform the work.da real…..why don’t you work for NASCAR and get them to fiqure out the negative cash flow tour problems.
Just this month, Palace Playland in Old Orchard Beach, Maine constructed a new rollercoaster in three weeks with two snow storms and temps in the teens during the period. Construction involved use of cranes and is a rather tall structure. They were literally working during one of the snowstorms.
Also, if I remember correctly, a few years back the Speedbowl opened with only 25% of the grandstands open for use with that number gradually increasing as the season went on. Anything is really possible here, although I believe the Speedbowl should be more forthcoming with information, especially if information was not initially reported accurately or has changed since the original announcement – either are possible.
Well, maybe global warming will help get this mythical construction done.
Still would like to know why construction did not start as advertised right after Smacktoberfest. And why the Town has not been in the loop at all. That the ‘bowl has not talked to the town for months is FACT and EVIDENCE that there is nothing going on at the ‘bowl. It looks like the ‘bowl is hoping to get another season, or a couple seasons, in the ‘as-is’ condition.
The town knows that Bemer can’t sell, and Bemer knows that. If he can’t sell and the track does not open, the track will sit idle for a few years until all the cases are settled, and the track finally sold or condemned. The town can’t refuse to permit the operation of the place as a means to get Bemer to sell or spend big bucks to fix the place. Those options are not available due to the court orders. And Bemer is not allowed to do huge expenditures because it would be above and beyond normal operating expenses as allowed by the court ordered freeze on his assets.
I feel sorry for Waterford building official Frank Hoagland. He’s being pressured to open the ‘bowl no matter what.
Did you ever see Jaws, the movie? That little town mayor wanted to keep the news about the shark covered up, and keep the beaches open no matter what and no matter how many people were eaten by the shark all for commercial reasons.
DaReal, sounds like you must be an Attorney as well as an Engineer as others have posted. Otherwise you would not be spewing such legal incite. LOL
Someone at one point coined you da real idiot…….it fits here.Once more…lease agreement in place for coming season….terms are no one’s concern.any competent attorney or business person will ensure that no matter what happens….property sold.teanferred.liened.encumbered.will NOT affect the coming season.when its decided to proceed with the necessary improvements,im sure everything will move guickly and smoothly as it’s in everyone’s best interest to get it done.finallt…..hey da real…how’s the negative cash flow tour repairs moving along
BREAKING NEWS.Da Real Idiot was just spotted trolling the parking area at the Speed bowl.He broke his cover as he was driving his Prius with the new and improved flux capacitor and sporting the Hillary in 2020 sticker on the rear bumber.He also had a construction helmet on with a lightning rod attached to it.Keep us informed of this fluid news story.P.S Shawn…..thanks for the site and coverage but if da real keeps this up,you and everyone covering racing in the Northeast will be out of a job!Boggadey.Booggadey.lets put up those bleachers boys!
Hey Mark Andrews, if the management of the ‘bowl keeps doing what it does, there won’t be a ‘bowl.
And I and the rest can continue to talk about it all we want.
Hey Shawn, is the NLWS clear to open in 2018 in the current condition? Do permits have to be issued for 2018 regardless of the grandstands and other issues?
Dareal, as always you are way off base with your reasoning. The Building Official is getting pressure from where? The Building Official works for the Town and if you believe for one minute he is going to do anything that will place the Town in a position of liability you are sadly mistaken, outside influences or not. The building Official operates within the local and State building codes and his job is to enforce not circumvent them. I think he has made himself abundantly clear what his expectations are for the 2018 season and has drawn the line in the sand, no new stands, no racing. As written in the article above; Asked in November if there was an agreement that the town would not allow the track to open in 2018 with the current grandstand standing Hoagland said: “We had conversations to that effect”. Pretty clear to me.
And your last paragraph is the most demented piece of reasoning I have ever seen. Cover up? Where? The building official has stated his case including requirements, that is far from a cover up and the allegation is absurd. Now the Speedbowl on the other hand has also been consistent on this subject “not available for comment” so if there is a cover up here it is certainly not with the Town. Track management????
Don’t forget daidiot says construction work cannot happen during the winter.
darealgoodfella,
I can’t speak to any other inspection issues they might be facing beyond the reconstruction of the grandstands. Obviously the typical stuff for any facility like that welcoming in the general public.
Da real……I don’t recall telling or asking you and your misguided friends to stop posting about the bowl.it just becomes reduntanr and boring to see that you continue to show any lack of common Sense or knowledge of racing.the only time you are positive is when you praise perhaps the most poorly run and overley priced precious modified tour.even if the bowl were sold……that’s if.thetr are 3 or 4 people waiting in line with ready cash to continue it as a race track.you talk about facts…that’s a fact.when and if beamer sells is entirely up to him.and the market will decide the price.period.also fact…..over the past ten years parcels along the 85 corridor have been purchased and developed with some being pad ready.thats water and utilities…zoning etc.those parcels run from the gold star bridge to Salem 4 corners.one would assume the more valuble parcels like close to the established shopping and food and banks and the highway entrance and exit.so in your Steven Hawking like genious mind.explain to anyone reading this thread why anyone would buy a contaminated piece of land with various outbuildings.delapidated bleachers and poor drainage for over a million dollars?while there are dozens of lower priced ready to go,blank canvas surveyed pad ready parcels for less?I can’t imagine the cost of soil remediation alone at the bowl site.at least 4 to 500 thousand would be my guess.not counting the fact that the property borders wetlands.you are insane and app I need to know is when I get you a straight jacket….do you want lfr chassis.coby racing,or NASCAR on the back….it will always be a race track for the foreseeable future.find another subject to whine about….please!
I thought you knew everything dareal. The building official annually has to inspect the facility and issue a permit to open. What would lead you to believe this year would be any different that any other year? HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here’s an interesting factoid that you may find interesting. Joe Lajoie seems to be a Stafford expert so if he’s reading this he may care to confirm it. In 1980 my recollection is that a front gate ticket to Stafford was $6.50 for a regular Friday night program. Using a program to adjust for inflation that ticket today would cost $19.46. Interesting, Stafford hasn’t even raised prices for inflation it would appear.
Still think this Dareal person is a kid in his room trolling. The emoji’s and not knowing that property taxes are paid first. What adult doesn’t know that? It’s property ownership 101. The repetition, lack of depth, empty claims of expertise, canned responses, childish taunting. No personality emerging like at all. Mischievous scamp waiting for mom to tell him supper is ready maybe. Serious adult not so much.
Calm down Doug. You’re just jealous because you don’t know how to use emojis…
bob freeman the voice of reason.. agree it would be nice if additional info was provided. too much inconsistency on coverage and on info coming from the management.. I understand shawn still provides an outlet for this so thanks to shawn for that ..I believe Whitney has no reason to lie. bemers ownership is a non issue for me , whitney has a lease. no one has seen the lease.. I believe there will be racing with new stands completed and the schedule will stand.
That there is a lease means NOTHING. Why is that important? What’s in the lease, or not in the lease, means nothing. That the 🚽 is at risk of not opening is the issue, and nothing in the lease can do anything about that. The 🚽 needs repairs, and the lease doesn’t matter. Repairs are needed regardless of a lease. The town could shut down the 🚽, with or without a lease.
Why doesn’t Bemer run the show? 🤔 Oh yeah, that. 🤦♂️ Because of 😡THAT🤬, Bemer needs to stay out-of-sight-out-of-mind. Discussing the 🚽 has become a big 🙈🙉🙊 show. This debacle is a 🎪 with loyal 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 making like there’s nothing to see here. Very sad. 😔
It looks like the 🚽 could not be allowed to open for the 2018 season due to lingering and persistent issues, particularly with the grandstands. Will the 🚽 spend the 💰 to remedy those issues? 🤔 More like CAN the 🚽 spend the 💰 to remedy the issues? The court order allows only for normal expenses. Rebuilding the grandstands and other buildings is not normal, rather extraordinary. Will the court order allow for such expenditures?
Keep wishing, maybe the 🧚♀️ will make everything okay. But then, the 🦍 already thinks that all is well and there are no problems at all. 🎠
The town has issues with the grandstands and various buildings. Replacing all that is a major construction project. The track is scheduled to open May 5-6, 2018. As is, construction did not start right after Smacktoberfest as advertised. 🤔
The 🚽 is about to get a 🏴. In ways, it looks like a self-imposed 🏴.
🎄 ☃️ ❄️ 🌨
Second Sour’s recognition of bob freeman’s observations. Interest is at a fever pitch and information of Mr. Whitney’s plans scant. New stands is the goal. If that can’t be achieved do we really know that there is a red line on the existing stands? Opening with sections roped off is visually unattractive but if it is the only way to keep the ball rolling is that so bad? Maybe there is only one path forward here, maybe more then one. As for Mr. Whitney’s radio silence with racedayct I say this: Mr. Whitney, tear down that wall!
Mark Andrews as well. Bravo. Always an informative read.
The new Patreon program is a great way to express your support for all the hard work that Mr. Courchesne does to inform us on what’s happening locally in racing. I certainly hope that when emoji boys parents give him his allowance he can see his way clear to pitching in as well.
I feel sorry for Waterford building official Frank Hoagland. He’s being pressured to open the ‘bowl no matter what.
Did you ever see Jaws, the movie? That little town mayor wanted to keep the news about the shark covered up, and keep the beaches open no matter what and no matter how many people were eaten by the shark all for commercial reasons.
Any further comments directed at da real quick ould be like trying to rehabilitate a career criminal.you can’t fix stupid…..it’s only going to get worse when NASCAR cup and modified tour fade off into the sunset.at least the bowl has an excuse for lack of cars and fans.perhaps da real could explain why the cup side and the tour are floundering and why the racing is not entertaining?
If you were Mr. Whitney, and you had good news about the reconstruction, wouldn’t you want to let it be known? Interesting that the 🚽 does PR trying to make it look like all is well and normal, but there’s that 1,600 pound 🦍, the arrow through the head, etc. that are being ignored and need to be addressed.
dareal, I asked you before in one of my previous posts, where is the cover up with the building official? Please explain your demented way of thinking. Thank you!
humphry, what coverup? Please quote the alleged “coverup”.
Dareal, this is what you wrote;
“I feel sorry for Waterford building official Frank Hoagland. He’s being pressured to open the ‘bowl no matter what”.
“Did you ever see Jaws, the movie? That little town mayor wanted to keep the news about the shark covered up, and keep the beaches open no matter what and no matter how many people were eaten by the shark all for commercial reasons”. First two words on the second line of this paragraph. You wrote it not me!
Dareal, excuse me it is the 5th and 6th words, the cut and paste came out a little different.
humphry wrote, “Dareal, excuse me it is the 5th and 6th words, the cut and paste came out a little different.”
Huh? The 5th and 6th words? From where?
Go and get the exact quote. Copy it and then paste it. Go ahead. Cut and paste does not come out different. And cite who the quote is from.
Who used the word “coverup” besides you?
Dareal said on 12/20 @ 11:16 AM & 12/21 @ 9:50 AM
“I feel sorry for Waterford building official Frank Hoagland. He’s being pressured to open the ‘bowl no matter what.”
“Did you ever see Jaws, the movie? That little town mayor wanted to keep the news about the shark covered up, and keep the beaches open no matter what and no matter how many people were eaten by the shark all for commercial reasons.”
Excerpt from paragraph 2; “That little town mayor wanted to keep the news about the shark covered up,” last two words, see them “covered up”, what is being covered up and by who? You wrote it not once, but twice so please enlighten us…………..
humphry, there you go! Big boy!
Chief Brody was pressured into keeping the beaches open. Hoagland is being pressured into letting the 🚽 open. The little beach town mayor wanted to use a cover up, snuff the news, to make the shark problem go away to keep the tourists coming and spending money, aka: the REVENUE.
It’s not so much a “cover up” as it is a “making like it doesn’t exist” situation. Keeping it “covered up” to “make it go away” is a little different, but mostly the same. For example, Whitney acting like the front man for the 🚽 is a coverup to keep the Bemer ambiance away from the place, get the place open and produce REVENUE.
Hoagland is being pressured to open the 🚽. The town wants and needs the revenue. FACT. Imagine the news if the 🚽 is not allowed to open due to the rickety grandstands. How was this allowed to get so bad, and then not remedied in time to open? Why didn’t the town force the repairs earlier? The town is going to take heat if the 🚽 does not open. The town is going to lose revenue if the 🚽 does not open. That’s pressure to allow the 🚽 to open. And the town knows that Bemer is in no position to do the construction due to the court orders on his assets. That is pressure on the town, Hoagland or others, to let the 🚽 run in the as-is condition, closing off the most dangerous sections of the grandstands. Bemer’s life is over, he does not want to spend that kind of money on something he’ll never be able to be involved in again. It’s a big mess.
There will not be any construction. Nothing on par with the new grandstands and new concessions building(s). At best, it will be a bandage, and hopes and prayers that the town will allow it.
If the town does not allow the 🚽 to open, it’s doomed. Who will buy it knowing that a major construction project is required before the town will allow it to open? Bemer isn’t going to spend a penny on the place above what it will take to maintain the illusion that all is well, hoping it will be allowed to open as-is.
Don’t you monkeys have anything better to do than argue about if the speed bowl is going to open or not ? It is totally out of any of our control.. Like I said before there are plenty of other tracks to watch racing at in the Northeast.. MERRY CHRISTMAS.
DahReal, please be specific to where exactly is the Town of Waterford getting any revenue from the Speedbowl being opened or not? Sure the Police, Fire and Ambulance members may be getting paid directly from the Speedbowl or maybe these services come as part of the property taxes which have to be paid regardless of the Speedbowl opening or not. Anyone with half a clue knows the CT sales tax and admissions tax that all the racetracks pay goes directly to Gov. MaMaMalloy or the Dept. of Revenue. I really doubt the state funds that come to the town to help pay for education and the roads have anything to do with whether the Speedbowls is operating or not. Sometimes DahReal you just make no sense at all.
Mr. Whitney has proven he has the juice to follow through having done it last year. Town building inspectors are pretty cool level headed folks for the most part. Possessing specialized education credentials and ongoing training they deal with highly sophisticated building systems routinely. The stands deal is child’s play to them. They may be asked to approve the stands again if the renovation misfires for any reason. If it happens they’ll make the right call cause they’re trained and capable.
Cheap shots by anonymous nobodies that have no actual clue of what’s going is what comments sections are for. Not to be confused with real people, doing real jobs in the real world.
What don’t you get dareal, the town only sees revenue from the Speedbowl in the form of property taxes which the Town collects whether the track opens for business or not. If anything the Speedbowl should worry about opening to make money so they can pay their annual tax bill so the Town does not place a lien on the property. I am done explaining this to you and as Mr. Wonderful on the TV show Shark Tank would say to someone that does not accept his offer to invest in their business, you are dead to me.
January 20th, the Speedbowl will be holding it’s banquet. It’s probably safe to say the management will have some definitive information regarding next year to announce at that event. The teams will definitely be looking for something.
25 SK’s and 28 SK Lights signed up so far on the Stafford team listing page. Not a bad start this early.
No word on the United Northeast Asphalt Crate Modified series or 375 Pro Sportsman Series.
Doug, I think you are 100% correct, the banquet date will be a critical deadline for the release of info. If nothing is said announced by then I think you can stick a fork in the Speedbowl opening on time in 2018.
I’m interested in the banquet too, as in will it happen?
So nice that they are going through the motions. But when it comes to compliance with town and state laws (the town often acts as the state agent) will the 🚽 be allowed to open in the Spring?
That the town has not been contacted at all by the 🚽 leads one to believe that they are going to go for putting the town in a bind, and wait until it’s too late for construction to happen before they go for permitting for the 2018 season. The town does not want to look like the bad guy here.
DahReal, do you really think the Town of Waterford is really going to open themselves up to the liability of grandstand collapse and subsequent law suits sure to follow considering they are completely aware of the safety issue at the Bowl. The Speedbowl’s safety issue if far from the unexpected event that happened when the grandstands collapsed at the World Series event at Thompson back in 1989.
http://lookingback.speedwaylinereport.com/ARCHIVES/OCT09/10-16-09.htm
Doug, IMO no news is good news regarding the United Crate Motor Mod Series. The last thing is needed is another tour to dilute the weekly SKL divisions at our local tracks. IMO there is no winner by starting another unneeded tour here except for the person starting theSKL touring series. Having not heard anything further about the proposed SK light series I can only assume the organizers have seen the light that starting another series is not in their, the race tracks or the fans best interest.
Hey just wondering, don’t waste your breath with this guy. He does not have a clue what he is talking about when it comes to civics. I think with everything else he claims to have in his resume we can add crap house lawyer.
You are correct and I also said it previously, the Town will not put itself in a position for liability. The only one that is putting themselves between a rock and a hard spot is the Speedbowl. The town could care less if they are the bad guy especially when they drew the line in the sand earlier this year. No new stands, no opening day. The track is the only bad guy here in my opinion.
humphry, there is the ticket tax and sales tax, collected in each and every town, for the state. You think the state taxes (not property) collected in a town like Waterford are not going back to Waterford, and being sent to Greenwich and Westport? Think, humphry, think. All those taxes (not property) are collected and redistributed by the state, back to the towns from whence they came. And what about the corporate business taxes? Those that are not property taxes? The big tax package reduced corporate taxes from ~35% to 21%. See? The corporate taxes are not the property taxes. The revenue stream is indeed causing pressure.
I’m with you on the Light tour Just Wondering. I don’t know how many of the Stafford SKL’s that are on the teams page will actually show up but initial indications are that Stafford has no issues yet with the tour that may or may not happen.
With all due respect humphry I’m just not reading the tea leaves on the line in the sand the same. Seems like all options are on the table at this point in time. My focus is on the banquet. May not be fair but my read is that is make or break time.
Well, it’s Friday, the last working Friday of the year. Many companies, businesses are shutting down for the holidays. Even those that are open aren’t going to get much done.
How about those construction plans? humphry, Doug, … you guys see the plans yet?
Very strange that Whitney and Bemer are remaining incommunicado. Not a good move for a business entity that derives its livelihood from the public and participants.
Doug, I believe you and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree. The town holds all the cards here since they have to sign off on the entire facility prior to opening. Options? I don’t believe there are any options left on the table. The town has played the stands game for long enough.
Excerpt from this article; Asked in November if there was an agreement that the town would not allow the track to open in 2018 with the current grandstand standing Hoagland said: “We had conversations to that effect”.
I believe the building official’s and the towns position is abundantly clear. I also believe the Speedbowl fully understands the towns position according to the above statement and has had all year to put things into motion for an on time opening in 2018. As the saying goes “no ticky no laundry”.
Yes humphry you have the preponderance of information on your side. I’m basing my feeling that there is a little wiggle room solely on the fact town officials rarely draw lines in the sand with property owners. One thing is for sure. only one of three scenario’s can happen. The one most of us favor, the other that is OK, not ideal but we’ll have a season and oh crap.
Understand your point Doug. I believe the overwhelming concern with stands is the liability the town would put themselves in by making a “popular” decision rather than the “right” decision especially with documented safety concerns that have existed for some time now.
My fingers are still crossed for racing at the Bowl in 2018. The town/grandstands issue is not clear to me. If the stands passed the town inspection in 2017, what leads some (including the town?) to predict that they won’t pass in 2018? Isn’t it possible that the existing stands will pass inspection again this spring?
Agreed. I don’t believe there is a such thing as a popular decision since my exposure to inspectors leads me to believe that above all they are straight arrows for the most part. Risk aversion straight arrows. Otherwise you are right. Imagine a collapse. National exposure. It would be a nightmare. I still believe the highly improbable approval for the existing stands is in play. But if it happened it was be based on current analysis and popularity would have zero to do with it.
What I would like humphry is your opinion on something. If the season is a scratch for next year do you think it’s the end of racing there forever or do you think it could be revived down the road. Scale of 1 to 10, 1 being it’s done forever.
Doug, I am going to answer your question in two parts.
First with a comment. I think it is time we stop bothering and trying to place blame on the town building official as he has a job to do. One, avoid any liability on the towns behalf and two, protect the public from harm or injury. The truth is the Speedbowl does not owe anyone of us an answer even though it would be adventageous to them to provide periodic updates if they want fans in the stands and cars in the pits. They know what they have accomplish prior to opening day in May and if they dig themselves a hole they can’t escape then the blame falls solely on them and no one else.
I believe the Speedbowl has to open in some way shape or form every year to continue to maintain the permit they are allowed to operate under as a venue. Whether it be 1, 5, 10 or 20 shows as long as it opens they will be fine. If not I am really concerned it may be over. I say 2 at best, that is only my opinion.
Yes that’s pretty much where I am on it all including the 2. Hope you can still do the updates. A visit just before the banquet may be interesting.
Will do on the updates, Merry Christmas and safe travels.
humphry, is the parking lot full of construction equipment? Will need explosives to break through the frozen ground. This is just a great way to start the winter construction season.
Flood the infield and play hockey for a couple months. 🏒
Go skating. ⛸
Or even more exciting, outdoor curling. 🥌
🤣 🤣 🤣 😂 😆
Baby it’s cold outside. I’d say it would be better to be in Florida now but if it’s cold down there and you have a killer AC system and a puny space heater maybe being in a place built for the cold is better.
Clearly we have a hard freeze afoot here and have entered a new phase in the Speedbowl saga. All ears may be pointed at the Speedbowl banquet to see what management has to say about next year. Predictions are cheap so here’s mine. They will announce a time table for the renovation or announce that they were not able to follow through for whatever reason. We love humphry’s updates and concentrate on physical changes to the track. Cars parked by the office and lights on is equally significant to me.
Odds of physical progress in this epic cold and hard freeze is minimal. Myself I just don’t think it’s a big deal. They are either moving forward with planning or they are not. That now is the question and not the temperature outside. Timing is inconsequential. Mid March to May is plenty of time to get the job done if there is a job to be done. If the season starts late we’ve already seen that can work too. Planning, that’s the key and telling the participants what is happening cause after all they are the show. Not us.
Speedbowl employees on Facebook begging teams to buy tickets to the banquet is sad to see. Not a good look for the place.
Doug, While I 100% agree the NLWS needs to release some info about 2018, good or bad but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your thought that the “participants” are “after all they are the show, not us”. IMO the participants (assuming you mean the raceteams) are a very very important component of a racetracks success, I believe there are a few other key groups that are equally as important. Some of these groups are the fans, marketing partners a.k.a. track sponsors, and the media (both racing and non-racing outlets). It seems to me that the tracks have gotten away from working to build a fan base that is not related to a race team in one way or another. I see very few “just racing fans in general” at the track like there used to be back in the day when it was hard to find a seat every Friday & Saturday night.
In the way of just wondering I wonder this. The Speedbowl always gets an epic comment response with so many speculative observations and predictions from the same people including myself. What is glaringly obvious is what we don’t hear. Comments from the guys that race there saying what they heard or they’ve talked to management and this is what they said.
My guess is that if Rocco calls up the Speedbowl office and says he has cars to put together for the season and asks if there is a season to plan for or not he’d get an answer. Any regular there could ask the question, get an answer and pass it on here. But we never hear from them as far as I can see. What they’ve heard and what their plans are.
10/4 Just Wondering. Fans are important. All the others you sight as well. And if you said you can’t start too early as far as promotion goes you’d be 100% correct. All I’m saying is at this point on the calendar if you have a car in your shop and are deciding to freshen the engine and go through the components they need to know ASAP.
According to the Speedbowl FB page, 55 people are going to the banquet.
Talk amongst yourselves.
DahReal, do you really think only 55 people are going to the NLWS banquet and do you think everybody lists everything they are going to do on Facebook? There are some of us that feel it is no ones business except our own as to what and where we will be at a certain time. You don’t have to be the brightest bulb in the shop to know thieves use facebook as a tool to prey on those that are away from home like those idiots that post photos when they are in Florida or away on a cruise somewhere.
Man setting in a whole new screen ID, Event Planner, just to perpetuate rumors or lies on banquet attendance. Nice save by Just Wondering at least reminding people to not advertise their property is ripe for picking.
Sorry I could not get by the Speedbowl this week for an update but I will be doing a drive by next week. I agree the banquet will be the make or break for the 2018 information highway. If there is no racing or renovations schedule released at the banquet then track management will be walking on dangerous ground with the competitors and patrons. We will see what we will see.
Just Wondering, the reason you are always wondering is because you are without a chance of a clue.
The FB page displays the number of people that are going as a total, not each person and their identity. So there’s no way all these devious lurkers with pernicious intent can target these people that have indicated that they are going to the NLWS banquet. The FB info is a survey, click a box, that is all.
Only 55 people have affirmed they are going. Can presume about half that number are spouses.
dahreal so reading your reply and not really understanding your mention of spouses. So are you saying the attendance is 55 or 110. My bet is the will be 400+ when all is said and done.
400 plus? Where do you pull that number from?
Let’s just do a quick analysis of the car counts.
Across seven Saturday night divisions only 26 drivers started every event. That’s an average of 3.7 per division. In the tracks top division only four drivers started every race and only 11 bothered to show up for more than half of the races. That’s pretty awful.
In the top three divisions (SK, SK Light and Late Model) a total of seven drivers started every event and only 26 drivers started more than half of events.
Overall across seven divisions only 74 drivers started more than half the events.
Now, it’s more than likely that most drivers that didn’t bother to show up for more than half of the races aren’t going to the banquet. And probably quite a few of those 74 that did show for more than half but weren’t really full-time aren’t going to the banquet either.
Mix in the fact that there’s no “point fund” checks for anybody to pick up, which is typically the biggest draw to banquets for short track teams, and I’d have to guess getting 400 is really going to be pushing it.
Blindstein, nice analysis.
In other news, the Waterford groupies don’t let facts get in the way.
humphry, think you can do a drive by the banquet hotel to see if it has a crowd?
Hat’s off to Albert for doing a great analysis instead of a meaningless trash and dash.
Questions; don’t those participation numbers apply to Stafford as well? How’d Stafford do at their banquet? Don’t people just go for fun? Cocktails, good food, rubbing elbows with some of the top guns. Sharing rumors, talking about last years triumphs and failures and next years plans and hopes. How about sponsors, sponsors spouses, extended family, friends and crew members. Do most people pre order or wait until the last minute? Does anyone know Heather in the Speedbowl office that actually knows the head count?
That’s all nice but the elephant in the room no matter how many people are there won’t be the number of people there. On January 21st I’m thinking there will be information forthcoming about next year and my prediction is you will see it first on racedayct. Hopefully it will be good news fingers crossed.
Answer to my own question.
“Stafford Motor Speedway welcomed a guest list of nearly 450 people consisting of teams, drivers, sponsors, and employees”
450, that’s a lot. And Staffords participation numbers, those that entered every race, those that entered half the races are a bit higher but not by much.
I’m sticking to my prediction. Information will be available January 21st. And a couple new predictions. Rocco will be recognized for being the SK champion. They’ll have enough meals for the people that attend. Some people will drink too much. And a good time will be had by all that attend.
Oh one more. Humphry will generously continue to provide updates and be appreciated by many more then the one guy that mocks him for doing more then talking.
Alburt and others, my figures are based on my past attendance of at least 20 Speedbowl banquets going back as far as the 1980’s at the Port and Starboard club at Ocean Beach. Some banquets back in the hay day the attendance was announced as over 600 with a lot less divisions. Did you figure in most all attendees bring a significant other or two including family and friends when you did your analysis? As for the picking up a points check, that is clearly not the issue as the points checks have not been handed out at the Speedbowl banquet in years. This is been the norm since NASCAR took that liability out of all of the promoters hands a long time ago due to some promoters helping themselves to a piece or all of the points pie ahead of time.
Going by past reported info the last time the Speedbowl had a stand alone Saturday Night banquet (Wacky Wed. / Thurs. Thunder teams not included) was in 2015 where over 500 were in attendance as evidenced by the link below. DahReal these are the facts like it or not. I fully realize past performance is not a perfect crystal ball of the upcoming banquet that is why I have discounted my numbers by 25%. I stand by my estimate. I am hoping the racers and teams attend the banquet in full force showing their support of the NLWS and their hope it will continue to operate going forward. Who knows, maybe the lack of banquet participation and ticket sales maybe just the straw that breaks the camels back and the current management team decides to walk away. Then we will all have nothing.
https://racedayct.com/2016/01/new-london-waterford-speedbowl-participants-celebrated-at-2015-season-banquet/
What ever information the Speedbowl releases at the banquet, it will be solely up to them to back their words up with results. In plain english if they talk the talk, they better be able to walk the walk. I will be optimistic that will happen and I hope it does not come back to bite me in the butt.
darealgoodfella says:
December 29, 2017 at 9:23 pm
The FB page displays the number of people that are going as a total, not each person and their identity. So there’s no way all these devious lurkers with pernicious intent can target these people that have indicated that they are going to the NLWS banquet. The FB info is a survey, click a box, that is all.
—————————————————————-
That’s not how it works. It’s not a survey. If you go to the full FB page, view the banquet event page and click the link for people going it shows you their names, FB profile link and so on.
I don’t see how when you are a fan of the Speedbowl humphry, support it with your ticket purchases, hope for the best in the future it can bite you even if it does fail to launch next year. All that would say is you’re a loyal fan that was let down by events beyond your control.
Doug there are many people who enjoy the track and have been fans or competitors for years who make a personal decision not to go there because they don’t want to support the current ownership. Why the constant criticism of them? Everybody has the right to make decisions based on their opinion of the situation, and they shouldn’t be criticized for it. There are teams that have raced there for years who have chosen not to participate there because of the current ownership and the crimes the owner has been charged with. Because someone doesn’t want to support the current ownership doesn’t mean they want to see the track go out of business. People can rationalize it any way they want, but people shouldn’t be blamed for making a choice not to support what’s going on there. Blame the owner for putting people in a position to have to make decisions of whether or not they want to support what’s happening.
Warren, that’s interesting. I’m not interested in knowing exactly who is going, so I didn’t make the effort to search that out. Do you often look to see who isn’t going to be home?
I’m not a fan of any racetrack. I’m a fan of certain race car series.
I would not go to a race if the series I am involved with ran at Waterford. As far as the teams, sponsors, sanctioning entities, and series staying away from Waterford because of the charges against the owner, I’m not at all concerned about the consequences to Waterford or of its fans. The Waterford owner brought the problems onto himself. I’m not going to associate with it or support it. It’s not my problem or issue, and I can’t be criticized for it.
What happens to the ‘bowl is a direct result of the actions of the owner. It isn’t the fault of anyone else.
It’s the basics of FB. You are spreading fake news telling people that when they reply to an event page on FB that they’re hidden and simply taking a “survey”.
It’s also clearing up the doubt you may have had replying to why there may be only 55 on FB saying they are going.
Just the facts, no need to attack when proven wrong.
So Warren and Just Wondering, you think all those Speedbowl folks that indicated they are going to the banquet are dumb for letting it be known they won’t be home and their house is now available to be burglarized?
Doug, the only two tracks I consistantly supported in all the years we raced was Thompson and Waterford. We ran half a season at Stafford and had to call it a year at due to lack of finances but for some reason really never had as much fun there as we did at the other two tracks. Some of the best times of my life was spent in the parking lot of the Speedbowl after the races, car on the trailer in one piece or wrecked, cooking burgers and dogs, drinking beer and hanging out with friends watching the sun come up. Am I a fan, yes with shades of grey due to what the current owner did that put the track into such a tail spin it may never recover. I however don’t want to see what is left of the place turn into another strip mall or truck stop like had been discussed prior to it’s recent purchase.
Bowl Fan. Could you pull up a quote from anyone criticizing or belittling any Bowl fan such as yourself that in good faith has stated they are boycotting the track based on the charges against the owner.
The only two tracks I consistently supported were the Danbury RaceArena and Stafford. But you can bet humphry that if I lived close to the Speedbowl that track with it’s personality, great racing and fan base would have been my track of choice. I still can’t get over how guys navigated that track surface in the 80’s.
DahReal, Lets just say they may not be aware of the relationship between posting on facebook and the risk they are taking by doing it and leave it at that. I was just stating it was a reason many of us do not broadcast our day to day events. People are robbed everyday by those trolling facebook for those posting when they are not going to be home especially when away on vacation.
Humphry, I guess we may have something in common. I too remember many a sunrise while still drinking beer in the Speedbowl’s parking lot back in the good old days.
Hey Doug, these can answer your question or refresh your memory…
http://www.norwichbulletin.com/sports/20170330/speedbowl-car-owner-drivers-react-to-track-owners-arrest
and
http://www.norwichbulletin.com/sports/20170405/7-speedbowl-officials-resign-after-owners-troubling-arrest
That should give you an idea of the magnitude of the number of people and entities that want nothing to do with the ‘bowl under present ownership.
Warren wrote: “It’s the basics of FB. You are spreading fake news telling people that when they reply to an event page on FB that they’re hidden and simply taking a “survey”.”
No, I’m not deliberately spreading fake news. I just don’t use FB that much, I don’t drill down into the details of FB like you do. I have no interest at all to know who is going, just the number of people, but you certainly know how to see exactly who is going. Really sad that Just Wondering considers all those people as “idiots” for posting their plans and whereabouts.
Just Wondering wrote, “You don’t have to be the brightest bulb in the shop to know thieves use facebook as a tool to prey on those that are away from home like those idiots that post photos when they are in Florida or away on a cruise somewhere.”
Just Wondering, or those idiots that post they will be at the NLWS Banquet?
Doug, Are you kidding me? You went after me with vitriol when I posted that I make choices on who to do business with based on knowledge of their morals. Now you can’t remember and need a quote?
DahReal, yes I do stand by my comment as written. Maybe I could have sugar coated it a little more and not used the word “idiot” but if the shoe fits so be it. LOL
RichC, ignore Doug’s demands for quotes. Do you think Doug remembers advocating that going to Waterford, spending money at the NLWS, is important to fill Bemer’s coffers so the victims will have a larger fund to go after? That’s just plain twisted.
Fair point RichC. But I think you’ll agree it complicated by the enmity we have for each other going back to the Truex deal. Furthermore the thread in which the tussle took place was one complicated by people in other regions that never go to the Speedbowl more or less implying we supporters are somehow morally deficient for supporting the track. You intentionally or not came in on that side and my response anyway was partly playing defense by playing offense.
So I would say loud and clear. To any traditional fans of the Speedbowl from the Gada family on down that are staying away for literally any reason they have my full respect and support. I trust those people of good will will respect our choice as well. Based on our confrontations I don’t include you nor that disingenuous needling troll Dareal in that sphere. But in all fairness you win the point.
I’m not going to the NLWS as long as Bemer owns it.
Doug, I’m glad I have your full respect and support.
And “no”, I don’t respect those that choose to associate with, support and defend situations like that caused by Bemer. N-F-W.
I think I’ve been pretty clear on how I feel regarding anything you say emoji boy. Which makes my only resolution for 2018 so easy. You are an empty vessel and as of 2018 you don’t exist as far as I’m concerned.
Anyone know if they started working on the bleachers? It is January 2018 now!
Happy New Years to all of you crazy racing fans. Here’s to an awesome 2018 racing season in New England!
What’s the minimum temperature to use Bondo?
☃️ ⛄️ 🌬 ❄️
Happy New Year!!!!
🎊 🎉 🎊 🎉
It’s January, and what does that mean? Any day now…
I’m so excited!!! Construction will start soon, right?
DahReal, at this point what difference does it make anyway (as Princess Hillary said after Benghazi). You state you are not going as long as the property is owned by Bemer. So give it up already!
Who would’ve thought daidiot emoji boy doesn’t know how facebook works. Talk amongst yourselves.
Just Wondering, glad to see you point that fact out. As the wrestler the Rock used to say” it doesn’t matter what you think”! And that fits dareal perfectly on this one.
Just Wondering, this thread is about whether or not the 🚽 will open on May 5-6, as advertised, or if the 🚽 has been 🏴 and waved its last 🏁.
humphry said, “Just Wondering, glad to see you point that fact out. As the wrestler the Rock used to say” it doesn’t matter what you think”! And that fits dareal perfectly on this one.”
Clearly, there is a huge need for thinking around here.
Went by the Speedbowl today. All stands remain intact, backhoe still in the same place as it was, bucket truck parked down by the 1st turn stands, vehicle parked by the trailer, blinds closed, could not tell if the lights were on or not. From what I can see nothing has changed since the last visit.
humphry, thanks for the update.
Looks like a foot of ❄️ snow ❄️☃️🌬 and some ice the next couple days, with record threatening 🌡 cold 🌡, and blizzard 🌬💨 conditions.
Thanks humphry. It may be safe to say that if anything is going on it’s planning and lining things up for the thaw. Management stays active adding events and acting like they have a plan. Either that or it’s the most elaborate fake out of any track in history with no purpose whatsoever. Should know more post banquet, good or bad. I’m convinced it’s good.
I’m thinking the NLWS is simply going to take down the troublesome stands and leave behind the stands that are okay. It makes the problem go away at minimal cost.
❄️ 🌡 🌬 ❄️ 🌬
humphry, take a ride by and see if they bothered to plow a path to the trailer offices.
Has anybody seen ANY news about the NLWS on any other news source? Particularly 2018 plans, such as the reconstruction and season schedule.
If so, post the links here.
I’m looking for the 2018 NLWS schedule… anybody know where I can find it?
It must be available by now.
Dahreal, its still too early in the year for the schedule, last year it was announced right around banquet time and the year before was even later. My guess is we will be provided with lots of info at the banquet.
JW, other tracks and series have schedules already. Some have been out for several weeks already.
Seriously, what does the NLWS have to schedule?
There is a thaw coming later this week.
Maybe construction will start then?
Well?
Any news?
Any news about the NLWS 2018 season on other media outlets?
The winter crickets are very quiet.
DahReal, below is a copy and paste from a facebook post that was posted by a NLWS insider. Looks like things are going to put your negativity to rest very soon. I know its vague but I would think an insider would not post something on his own unless he really knew what was going on.
Chris Forster
From someone who Knows. It is all coming together. More info very soon.
LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 9 · 2 hrs
The present Race Director hints to everything being a Go for next season and that official word coming soon.Its on a social media sight.Im glad da real racing,legal,and construction expert is on top of the situation with updates by the minute.Wonder what kind of life some must have……very sad
Word has it the delays are due to agreements and contingencies on a pending sale and change of ownership.Local individual with deep pockets and a racing back round.
JW, a FB post? Wow!!! Great scoop you have there. Like that’s so informative and credible. {sarcasm}
Mark Andrews, I wrote it many times that the only way out of this, for the benefit of Bemer and the NLWS is for it to be sold, and sold quickly. Not after he’s sentenced and the victims have finished suing him some ten years from now. The longer this drags on, the worse it is for the property and Bemer. That the courts have been petitioned as such would be encouraging.
But there is still the issues with the safety of the facility that will need to be addressed with the Town. Good luck with that.
A pending sale explains things. Current owners should not be committing the facility to obligations it can not honor.
Let’s see if your scoop works out, and I am proven right again.
“Word has it the delays are due to agreements and contingencies on a pending sale and change of ownership.Local individual with deep pockets and a racing back round”
I hope it all comes together someday, but some of the rumors remind me of the old movie “Slap Shot”. Maybe someone should sneak in and ask “Who own da’ ‘bowl?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Xp9hvTvPk
Could it be the Knights.Oh no, I forgot about the deep pockets part.
This should be an interesting banquet.
I can’t wait!!!!
Ok, guess it is time to continue the rumor mill, “Local individual with deep pockets and a racing back round.” Yoohoo Dickie Doo, Terry Ames, Ben Dodge, the guy that owns the Whelen Xfinity cars, Don Hoenig, the Arutes, anyone elses name to add to the list?
So Chris Forster posted 12 words on Facebook that actually said nothing and that should make everyone stop questioning what’s going on? Chris Forster is the same guy who was telling anyone that would listen two months ago that the track got a NASCAR sanction back and scheduled a Whelen Tour race for 2018. All this guy is good for is putting more and more crap frosting on the big turd cake they’ve baked down there.
DahReal. I would think someone (Chris Forester) in such a prominent position as Race Director at the NLWS would not be making a post saying all is going to be fine and info to be released very soon if he did not really know what is going on. If by chance Forester is just trying to make himself look more important than he is, it is my guess that his days at the NLWS may be coming to an end very soon To use an old cliche’ from WWII ” Loose Lips Sink Ships” and I doubt the management at the NLWS would look to kindly of his leaking info either false or not since it is obvious the NLWS has taken the position to not release any info at all.
Darealgoodfella in your previous post on Jan. 8 at 12:33pm you stated in the last six words of the last sentence “AND I AM PROVEN RIGHT AGAIN”. You must have forgotten the last two sentences of this post from May 24, 2017.
darealgoodfella says:
May 24, 2017 at 1:47 pm
NH Mark, when the staff left, sanctioning left, series’ left, teams left, etc., it was obvious the track was not opening. The track cannot operate without those participants. There are many completely clueless Deplorables that think they are “owed” something, that they are the victims, and that Bemer will open and operate the track at enormous losses just so they can go play cars. They are oblivious to the obvious.
The track will never operate with Bemer still owning it. The track has to be sold before it will operate again.
Dear David Roode,
The 🚽 operated under deplorable ownership in 2017 because they couldn’t sell due to the court ordered freeze on assets. It take time to petition the courts. You think Bemer intended to sell the 🚽 after only 2-3 years of ownership? No choice but to open as was, with George as the front man to get Bemer out of sight. Now if what they say is true, that there is a sale pending, then I was right. They have indeed concluded that the NLWS can not continue to operate with current ownership without incurring detrimental losses, and it is in the best interests of the property and plaintiffs that Bemer be allowed by the court to sell to prevent further losses. I’m guessing Bemer lost a small fortune at the 🚽 in the 2017 season and he doesn’t want to do that again.
Best way to get families back to what is supposed to be a family oriented arena is to get the admitted child predators away from the place.
But using this Chris F. guy to get the rumor out there that there is a potential sale of the 🚽 is pure genius. This is the last trick. If this doesn’t work, it’s lights out.
Keep buying those NLWS gift cards. Register your car numbers. Keep sending your money to the 🚽.
Enjoy the banquet.
While you are at it, apply to Trump University.
Just Wondering….it’s none of the folks you mentioned.It is a Connecticut resident.He has been involved in racing all over New England and has the ability to close guickly.My understanding is that there are discussions ongoing based on necessary and needed improvements and final sale price.In simple terms…who’s going to pay for what?
It was Norm Wren and his business partners last year. Could they be trying again? Other names over the years were Kobyluck and Pastryack. I know, spellings incorrect.
Daidiot is delusional. He thinks he’s been right about all this. Isn’t it funny he hasn’t learned a thing. It’s almost a repeat of last year. Go back and read his comments all last winter.
My fingers will remain crossed until the first green flag of the 2018 season at the Bowl.
Well, given the problems that Bemer has, and that the Town is concerned about the safety of the place, it is now a distressed property that can be had for the right price, before things get any worse and the value of the property tanks any further.
If Mark is right, wouldn’t the silence from management make sense? Maybe everyone needs to calm down and chill. Getting whipped up into a frenzy won’t help. I love reading Shawn’s stuff, but you have to admit some people can’t handle it.
rich, that’s “IF” Mark is right. You ready to believe and trust what Mark posted? How credible is what Mark posted? If there is a sale pending, then that means the court has been involved since Bemer’s assets have been frozen. If it’s true, this must have been in the works for many, many months. Surprised it’s just coming out now. Something like this can take a long time if the courts are involved.
Think controlled leaks. Misinformation. Disinformation. All done by fringe people so accountability is not possible.
Don’t forget, demolition was supposed to start immediately after Smacktoberfest, which wasn’t that long ago, a little over two months ago.
Buy a few more NLWS gift cards.
So lets add to the rumors, purchase price if you have the money is 3mil and the new potential owners name is Mike!
humphry, I think Bemer bought the place for $1.7 million. He’s gonna sell for less. It is now a very distressed property, and is only getting more and more distressed as long as Bemer owns it.
I don’t think it is Mike.
So you purchase property for 1.7 mil, invest just north of 1 mil of improvements and sell it for less than the original purchase price? I don’t believe the court or IRS would buy into that.
And if you say it is not Mike, then tell me what Mikes last name is.
People lose money in real estate all the time.Why would someone just give a profit to bemer for a distressed property.Not only physically distressed but with it’s very soul and reputation just totally wreaked.I’m pretty sure bemer will take a loss on this deal.We shall see.
If you don’t think it is Mike, you must know his last name, so what is it? Final jeopardy, tick tock, tick tock time is running out. Final answer please………
So humphry, you can stop driving by the 🚽 for your reports.
Nothing is going to be happening. Feel silly now?
I am waiting for my answer, Mike’s last name please………
All knowing daidiot can’t even answer a simple question.
humphry, you named Mike… why are you asking me?
Gee, I wonder when the town building department will get involved?
Banquet in a week. Think it will happen?
Everybody got your tickets?
Pick up a few of those gift cards. They might be worth something some day.
This is going to be an exciting week.
Because in your last post on 1/9 you said “you don’t think it is Mike”. So if you say that then you must know who I am talking about. So put up or shut up, Mike who?
Don’t bother. Daidiot just talks to hear himself talk.
humphry, you said Mike. Mike who?
This should be an exciting week.
Next week, after the banquet, will be even more exciting.
I CAN’T WAIT!!!!! 🤩
So is there any news?
How is the 2018 NLWS schedule looking?
Can’t wait to see all the great and exciting fresh ideas.
What’s the date?