Credit Charges: LFR – Fury Online Feud Boils On Facebook Since Musket 250

LFR owner Rob Fuller (left) and Whelen Modified Tour team owner Dave Sapienza (right) in the garage at New Hampshire Motor Speedway Saturday (Photo: Fran Lawlor/RaceDayCT)

The Musket 250, it’s the win that keeps on giving when it comes to the months long social media war between LFR and Fury. 

The latest battle between the camps was set in motion not long after Bobby Santos III took the checkered flag driving for team owner Dave Sapienza in Saturday’s second Musket 250 at New Hampshire. 

After Fury Race Cars posted on Facebook recognizing the victory as a win for their company, Sapienza took it upon himself to call them out on Sunday morning

Ultimately that led to some text messages and phone conversation between Sapienza and Fury owner Darius Grala. 

On Sunday night Grala offered up a massive posting on the Fury Race Cars Facbeook page:  

Hi, this is Darius Grala (not FURY PR).

I just got off a 40 minute call with Dave Sapienza where we talked about his team winning the #NWMT #Musket250 and the Race Day CT (www.racedayct.com) article written about the win and the LFR misunderstanding that came along with it. After I explained the whole FURY/LFR backstory to Dave, he asked me, “Have you ever thought about putting what you just told me out there on social media?”

Truth is, I have thought about it, but always came to the conclusion that it was better to stay above the fray because most social media wars leave all sides looking less than great. But unfortunately, with all the misinformation out there right now, we can’t stay silent any longer. So here’s the whole story (hopefully in less than 40 minutes):

First, I ask you all to start by reading the short story about FURY (link below):

https://furyracecars.com/about

Second, I’d like to give Rob Fuller credit for what he deserves. Rob is responsible for taking two brilliant car designs (that never won races) and putting them together with a team of extremely talented crew chiefs and racers, and winning at least one race with each car.

Here’s what Rob Fuller didn’t do – he didn’t “create” the designs, he bought the designs from Steve Leavitt (of Leavitt Chassis) in 2014 and owned them until 2016. He doesn’t own them anymore because his company went out of business.

On August 29, 2016, Rob Fuller sold not only the designs and tooling to build both the Late Model and Modified race cars, but also all intellectual property and assets owned by LFR Chassis Inc, LFR Driver Development Group LLC and Rob Fuller Motorsports LLC to FURY Race Cars. The only things that Rob Fuller kept were the name “LFR” and the carpets embroidered with the LFR logo. He then shut those companies down and started a new company named LFR Enterprises based in Massachusetts. LFR Enterprises has the right to create “LFR” stickers, but does NOT have the right to create an “LFR” chassis or any component or replacement part for an “LFR” chassis.

In early 2017, LFR Enterprises became a dealer for the FURY Model M race car (which was formerly known as the LFR Modified). Every single car that Rob Fuller sold in the last three years was built with a FURY serial number and branding on it. Unbeknownst to us (until recently), Rob Fuller would cut out, grind off, or somehow cover up our branding on the cars (see an example in photos) which left some customers and fans with the false impression that LFR Chassis was still in business and that FURY was a contract manufacturer. This is the primary reason we terminated LFR as a dealer. FURY was never a contract manufacturer for LFR, nor was any other manufacturer a legal manufacturer of LFR replacement parts because we own the design rights to all proprietary parts of an LFR car, and any company that would want to build those parts would require our permission to do so.

Now, about this weekend…

Why do we take credit when an “LFR” car wins a race? Because we built the car. Or if it was built before August of 2016, we own the design rights to that car. But even those old cars, they were still built by the same people that work at FURY today, so those people are still proud of that. Do we think that we deserve all the credit? Heck no! The team owner probably deserves most of the credit for putting the car on the track, then there’s the driver, crew chief, the crew, engine builder, shock builder, and countless other suppliers who deserve some credit for the win – we are just one of the “pieces” that contributed to the win.

Also, when we take credit, we by no means want to take credit away from anyone else. If LFR sold the car, or did the setup on the car, they certainly should take credit for that contribution. And on the winning car this weekend they did both, so they deserve the credit for that. But since FURY built that car, we feel we deserve credit for that contribution.

If anyone has any serious questions that I didn’t answer, feel free to ask in the comments. But please don’t turn this into any more of a circus than it already is. All this negative press is making everyone involved seem somewhat foolish, and our sport and our fans deserve better than that.

Sapienza ultimately once again offered comment on the Fury Race Cars page, responding directly on Grala’s post (see below). 

On Monday morning LFR offered their response to Grala on the LFR Facebook page:

While we are not going to write a desperate story, we will gladly respond as we are forced into a social media circus. For someone outside the Modified industry to come along and not only try to take credit for what our teams are accomplishing, but also remove me as the designer of the LFR Chassis is pathetic. In 2014 I worked with Steve Leavitt to design the LFR Chassis. I had countless hours and spent a ton of money on RnD with Burt Myers and Todd Szegedy. We had several failures, but we always learned and redesigned parts to go back to the drawing board. In 10 months time, we were happy with the design and went into production, so to try and discredit that is just not right and redefines the word arrogant. Many people in the Modified garage area witnessed this so these are facts. 

It has been no secret who was manufacturing the chassis for LFR that we sold after 2016, so to say that we were misleading teams is another out right lie. In effort to promote our brand, we were placing our logo wherever possible. The Fury logo on the crossmember was a recent change, so not all chassis had that. In fact, we spoke to Tony Jr about placing our LFR logo in the crossmember in the referred to picture, being that was a LFR redesign showing two lower pick up points in the crossmember. 

We all know the LFR Chassis is a Troyer knock off. There is no IP to purchase. The legal definition of IP is any trademark, copyright or patent referring to a specific design. There are none. There is a confidentiality clause in the Asset purchase so we legally can not go into details but there is no legal IP or non compete. 

To say we can not manufacture parts is also false. We can manufacture Spafco parts if we wanted to, but out of respect to them, we do not so that is also a lie. 

We had a plan to execute a respectful company purchase in the beginning with a company called LFR cars. This left me with a minority interest and kept me involved at a support and consultant level. The direction was changed and the decision to start over with Fury was made. This left LFR with a large debt, but we still owned our brand. The debt was paid and the rebuild of the brand began. The last lie we will touch on is that LFR was “dropped” as a Fury dealer. If we were a Fury dealer why were we never spoke of in their LOUD social media stage? We were having major success and not one word or post? Strange. The very first phone call I made before purchasing Troyer was to Darius. I spent several weeks redesigning our front clip and made changes throughout the Chassis. I also redesigned the fixtures for them to eliminate their expense, and they delivered the first chassis with their logo in it. I asked if we could somehow work together to have a clear cut plan to ensure that both brands stayed strong and he responded that anything he manufactures, no matter who designed it, would be called Fury and he would own it. I went into Troyers and signed the papers. I refuse to work the hours I do, implement the knowledge I have, spend time with teams EVERY weekend, all to promote someone else’s brand. I might be selfish, but I refuse to do that. 

The Troyer purchase was done the correct way. The assets were purchased as well as the company rights. This IS NOT The case with the Fury LFR purchase. Troyer does in fact own IP. There are trade marks and designs that were purchased. The debt was paid off and Billy remained on board. This is the correct way to conduct a business acquisition. 

The Fury spoiler brace is a Troyer brace with their name on it. Fact. Troyer does not have a patent on this part so there is nothing that can be done. IP is difficult. When a IP purchase is made, there are several pages describing the actual IP. Usually, the original designer is the brain behind the design, so you want to take extra time and conduct due diligence to make sure there is clarity on the matter and design being purchased. In this case one sentence is no where near enough description. I am not a lawyer (neither is Darius) but I have several great ones that are advising along the way. I have enough going on in life and do not need distractions, so in effort to stay the course and remain focused on my customers and the LFR brand, I have been consulting with attorneys in Boston and Charlotte to insure what I do and say is correct. At some point all these posts will be printed and addresses on a higher more educated level. That I promise. 

When the dust all settles, folks will remain loyal to the companies and people that are loyal to them and help them succeed as a team. There are no design rights to any chassis, other than the TA2, which we purchased. LEGALLY. This industry moves too fast to make patents worth while. Since 2015 we have implemented over 40 design changes at LFR, and will continue to evolve. 

LFR Chassis manufactured chassis 001-052. We did not sell a time machine to Fury which would have been the only way to change that. 

Lastly I would like to apologize. This is embarrassing for us, and it should be more for them, as they are the ones firing off desperate comments and embarrassing SM posts (and remove all the comments that they don’t want folks to read) that we are left answering to. If you purchased a LFR, Spafco, Raceworks or ANY other chassis YOU own it and YOU are responsible for its success and YOU can call it ANYTHING you want! We would never try to take that away for any reason what so ever. We just enjoy helping out where and when we can and love being a part of the Modified family. We have been involved with the modifieds for over 30 years and look forward to the next 30 years with the LFR and Troyer brands combined! 

#letsjustrace

Tuesday the Eddie Harvey Racing team jumped into the Facebook conversation. 

The Whelen Modified Tour returns to drama on the track with the running of the NAPA Fall Final 150 Sunday at Stafford Motor Speedway.




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Comments

  1. FAKE NEWS!!!!!

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

  2. A few words from Dadope

  3. Thanks for the insight Shawn But I still think Grala is trying to take credit for Fuller’s hard work.

  4. I don’t think anybody’s pulling the wool over any of the owner and crew chiefs eyes , and the rest of us all have opinions, and you know what they say about those

  5. So why was the LFR-Troyer union originally announced as a merger? Being downwind of a sewage treatment plant on a hot day smells better than that.

    I don’t believe a thing Trump says. He always attacks people, and that is a huge indication he’s full of and spewing the 🐂-💩. Trump also likes to take credit for the achievements of others.

    So when will we know what makes the LFR product so special? What is this next level technology? Shouldn’t it be major selling points, posted all over the place?

    Well, the teams are in the same places in the standings that they have always been, regardless of the branding on the pipes, no big deal in changing the branding on a bunch of pipes. Lap times are not any faster. The talent of the TEAMS results in the placement of the standings.

    Trump likes to make trouble to get attention. This chassis 💩 is absurd.

  6. One thing that Rob Fuller says is that once a car is purchased the owner can call it anything he wants. Very true statement. Not to read anything into this whole story, but it appears that there is or may be some legal battles going on, and Rob has decided to take the high road in the whole situation.

  7. So tired of this stupid story, Who freaking cares. I guess we have to keep rehashing this day after day for more hits on the website.

  8. Changing Gears says

    Fuller is going to drag the Troyer name into the pooper.Why would Billy Colton get involved with this con-man is a mystery.

  9. Weekly racer says

    I don’t own a lfr or fury or Troyer but I have been reading all these post battling back and forth and just wondering how if a chassis is fabricated and welded together at fury race cars how it becomes an lfr chassis. From outside your both using the same chassis etc bolt on pieces as far as I know again I don’t have one. Fury manufactures all the parts that both are using again as far as I know or have heard from some of the teams. From this side of the fence and without the intimate details of the sale lfr is basically an assembly shop that also does the set ups for their customers. Do both parties in my opinion share in the success of an lfr win. Again unless there is something in the sale that says that fury is the manufacturer of the chassis but it’s to sold as an lfr chassis then there is something wrong from the fury side. This isn’t really good for both parties and should be kept of sm because without seeing any of the legal sale documents and who has rights to what is to us all hearsay from both sides. In the end fury built some nice cars that lfr assembled and set up and have been winning so credit to both of you.

  10. Weekly racer says

    I don’t own a lfr or fury or Troyer but I have been reading all these post battling back and forth and just wondering how if a chassis is fabricated and welded together at fury race cars how it becomes an lfr chassis. From outside your
    both using the same chassis etc bolt on pieces as far as I know again I don’t have one. Fury manufactures all the parts that both are using again as far as I know or have heard from some of the teams. From this side of the fence and without the intimate details of the sale lfr is basically an assembly shop that also does the set ups for their customers. So both parties in my opinion share in the success of an lfr win. Again unless there is something in the sale that says that fury is the manufacturer of the chassis but it’s to sold as an lfr chassis then there is something wrong from the fury side. This isn’t really good for both parties and should be kept of sm because without seeing any of the legal sale documents and who has rights to what is to us all hearsay from both sides. In the end fury built some nice cars that lfr assembled and set up and have been winning so credit to both of you.

  11. @Changing Gears, if Fuller didn’t buy Troyer, Colton would be out of business.

  12. Laps times are still the same as they were before the branding wars began.

  13. Ruh-ro. Captain keyboard is at it again. I have an a-hole and an opinion as well. Or is it I’m and a-hole with an opinion. Anyway here goes.
    -Fury; “Why do we take credit when an “LFR” car wins a race? Because we built the car.”. They need to stop saying car. They didn’t. They built the chassis.
    -Fuller;” If you purchased a LFR, Spafco, Raceworks or ANY other chassis YOU own it and YOU are responsible for its success and YOU can call it ANYTHING you want! We would never try to take that away for any reason what so ever.” If that’s the case then you need to take down the 51 from your Facebook page. True they identified with LFR at the time it was taken but they don’t now so it’s inappropriate.
    -Fury pointing to designs going back so far is silly. Aside from the changes in design that happen all the time how about wrecks. After a car is bent up and fixed is it really a Fury, Troyer or LFR anything unless it goes back of a manufacturers jig. It’s a whos got the skills to put a bent up mess back together and make in competitive again. It’s not like you dropped an Apple IPhone.
    -Fury has a point. Rob Fuller is a big personality that in a way has crushed the Fury chassis identification physically in some cases and from a marketing standpoint. He bought the chassis’s for a long time. I guess we can assume he felt it was a quality fabrication. Making it like it’s nothing until LFR works it’s magic isn’t recognizing the obvious. Fury does nice work.
    -Fury until the recent minimal praise of Fuller has not appropriately credited him in social media for being the maestro that delivered the Fury chassis from component status to victory lane. Their grasping entries on Facebook are ham handed, obvious and I would think futile. Who that buys a chassis looks at that generic faux praise for the winner that really is self praise and decides to spend thousands of dollars based on it alone.
    -Geeze Dave, could you have squeezed in any more F bombs and poop of the bull. The spotlight is on you after a huge win with all of modified nation praising you and that’s how you use the spotlight. Same as Coby. Not a good look for the sport.
    -Both sides are dancing around legalities and brushing up against legal action without actually filing any motions. Don’t for all the reasons you both know are true. It’s racing. Things change. Race cars are dynamic forces that change from race to race, day to night and get wrecked and are never the same. The affect of changes geometric not linear. The idea that a race car is some stagnant, never changing ideal of intellectual property is laughable.
    -Authorized dealer, approved contractor. Say what? When did that become a thing? My guess about the time the money stopped flowing. Should have been addressed at the start. Too late now.
    -who ended what and when had to be addressed by each party. You did, it ended in a he said/he said so move on. It’s moot now anyway going forward in view of realignment in modified manufacturing.
    -Both sides agree the owner has the right to call the car whatever they like yet both and especially Fury try to take ownership of the messaging via social media. Clearly all it does is cause a lot of bad feelings and confusion. Meaning the reason you do it is a fail so change the approach.
    The answer is simple. Sit down together and simply agree to terms to use in social media. Terms that simply tell the truth. We fans may be ignorant at times but we aren’t stupid.
    Distinguish between the chassis builder and car builder. Fury stop saying you’re the car builder unless you actually assemble the car completely set up and start button ready before the sale. LFR recognize the Fury or Troyer chassis used as the foundation for the car. Brand ID’s should not be altered for components and the chassis is a component. It’s bush league changing the brand. The car ID on the sheet metal is up to the owner. If you all have such respect for the car owners call them first before aligning your product with their success.It might also be nice to say something that shows you know anything about the team. Like including the crew chief.
    That generic nonsense with a picture and attaching yourself to a winner won’t work if the winner is trashing you back. Treat it like a cracked spindle. Fix it.
    Lastly, thank you for the great equipment you provide for the sport we love. One thing that we aren’t talking about is injuries from bad designs and workmanship. The absence is a credit to you guys.

  14. Seems so stupid, whats different about a TA4 than a LFR or Fury M-1? Now we have TFR another version of LFR.

    Fuller needs to pick 1 Name and stick with it, call it all Troyer or what ever, I don’t understand why he wants to keep Troyer and LFR separate, who’s going to buy a Troyer at the Same Price of the LFR if the LFR is the Superior Car?

    Fury is desperate, they are priced the same as LFR but don’t come with Fuller’s help, they are relying on Ryan Stone to fill the void but Ryan Stone’s success in the 51 stems back to Fullers help. If Fuller has something new come out that is successful Fury is done.

    $18,000 for a Chassis Body and Bars is ridiculous and other Chassis Builders need to step up there programs and build a competitive car at a better price than this or Modified’s will rapidly die off like Cup Racing, with even less owners who can afford to build a car that can compete.

  15. I like Ken Massa

  16. There’s plenty of teams running LFR that still suck.

    Where’s their piece of the next level pie?

    Did they not opt for the golden flux capacitor?

    The talent rises to the top. The standings rank the talent of the crew chiefs.

  17. To your point dareal, there are still allot of Fury cars that suck, same with Troyer, SPAFCO and CD. The team behind the car makes it go, or not.

  18. I thought at one point Fuller was being chased around for money and Thats when Fury bought him out. So with out Fury Lfr would not be here. And plenty of people feel Fuller is a con man and the same of Fury, So It seems stupid to keep battling over this crap and all it does is hurt the sport. They should just end this crap and settle it on the track, Because once the lawyers get involved they both waste tons of money and the only people who win are the lawyers.

  19. It’s like the jelly of the month club, it’s the gift that keeps on giving all year long.

  20. Rob p., what part of “The talent rises to the top. The standings rank the talent of the crew chiefs.” did you not understand?

    For months I have been posting that it’s the talent of the teams, centered on the crew chiefs, that make it work. It’s stunning that folks believe it is all about the pipes. Pipes come and go, and nothing changes, the same crew chiefs and their teams are in the same order in the rankings. How stupid do people have to be to allow themselves to be fooled about a set of pipes? The best thing Fuller ever did was stop running his own car and get others, the best crew chiefs, to run his product so they could make it look good. It was that talent that made it look good. Imagine if Fuller was still driving his own car? Just look at the statistics on Racing Reference to see how bad that was. 🤣😂🤣😂🏴🏴🏴🏴

    Lap times are not any faster, crew chiefs are in the same places in the standings, and I’m laughing my butt off at this. It’s amazing that modified racing has its own version of a Trump circus. Hire a clown, you get a circus. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

    When Trump announced, unprompted at that, that he was a stable genius, it showed three things:

    1. He was not stable.
    2. He was not a genius.
    3. He was not a stable genius.

  21. Dadope what was Billy Colton s driving record or darius grala s driving record , has nothing to do with designing , or engineering , don’t think LENNY was much of a driver either , bet you can’t wait for the day Fury 1-2-3

  22. Trapper Dave says

    Thank you RaceDayCT for this platform. I follow and attend Northeast / New England asphalt races every week. In my professional life, I’ve put together business purchase and sale transactions – many of which included proprietary information and trade secrets. I have also been party to disputes when disagreements like this arise after the transactions are concluded. Here is the critical question: What exactly did Rob Fuller sell to FURY as part of the August 29, 2016 transaction? If Fuller sold certain trade secrets (i.e. chassis designs) to FURY as FURY seems to be arguing, Fuller no longer owned those trade secrets, and consequently, could not use or sell or claim ownership to those proprietary chassis designs. If, however, Mr. Fuller did not sell the trade secrets that make up the chassis designs, he may use and sell them and market them publicly, or, as in this case, merge them into the 2019 transaction with Troyer. My experience is this – If the documents associated with the August 29, 2016 Fuller / FURY agreement are not painstakingly explicit regarding Mr. Fuller’s proprietary chassis designs (e.g. attached blueprints or design diagrams or CAD files) FURY cannot lay claim to them.

    Thank you RaceDayCT for hosting these comments.

  23. Dareal, a long time ago I said it was the team that made a car go. Team, not genius crew chiefs. Throughout time there have been some ” nobody” crew chiefs who stumble onto something, yes, I agree. But without a team, no results, afterall the crew chief isn’t the one doing pit stops. Takes a good team of people to be successful.

  24. The Asphalt modified chasis business is relatively small with companies fighting for a bigger percentage of a small pie. There really isn’t many crown jewel Asphalt mod events which pay a significant purse, Chasis companies want to make sure their name is associated with the Big win. Kind of a sad comment on Asphalt modified racing and where it stands currently. Its funny the builders and car owners cant agree on which chasis it is. Unfortunately, it sounds like they are going to get lawyers involved. Once that happens there are no winners with one exception the lawyers. I read through the article and all the comments. It seems like most people are a little tired of the bickering back and forth. Personally I don’t care if the winner was in a spafco, troyer, LFR, Fury, or CD(Did I miss any?} just happy they are making safe cars but wish they were little less expensive for these teams. Hopefully this doesn’t take away from a pretty good points race, Colby holds a 21 points lead over Bonsignore with 2 races to go. Cant wait to find out which chasis is proclaimed the winner by which company and the others response.

  25. Chassis wars isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but I enjoy them. Not the bickering on Facebook. The story behind it. Fuller taking on the elephant in the room Troyer. Building relationships and a customer base. Winning.
    Disappointed that it’s all one operation now for the most part but here comes Fury with a serious local presence. Could have sworn they were toast. The new upstart taking on the new elephant in the room. Seeing Silk unveil that rocket ship in New Hampshire was a new element of drama wasn’t it? A good start so now can they make inroads into the Troyer/LFR NWMT dominance? What about the SK market? Troyer dominated now with no new players making a serious move on the horizon. What don’t we know that may be revealed this winter?
    The current Fury/LFR foolishness has a limited shelf life since going forward it’s a non issue with new cars. Fingers crossed Fury can make it a good fight.

  26. The rulebook spells out what the basic chassis must be: box channel, pipes, dimensions, wall thickness, etc. It’s all in the rulebook. That means it is in the public domain and can not be intellectual property, trade secrets, proprietary information, etc. belonging exclusively to anyone. Like it was said earlier, patents just won’t work in this product space, particularly since the product is so old and mature. So if somebody comes up with something and puts it out there, anybody can use it.

    Now folks are using wordy words like intellectual property, trade secrets, proprietary information, etc. and it’s all totally stupid. Without a patent, the only way to protect anything, which means blocking someone else from using something, is with party-to-party agreements. These agreements would spell out that one party shall not use, copy, etc. the specifically identified IP, trade secrets, etc. But are the chassis companies requiring such executed documents with customers? Without a patent, once the chassis is outside of the walls of the manufacturer, NOTHING is proprietary, secret, exclusive intellectual property, etc. and it is in the public domain, open to be copied and used by anybody.

    I highly doubt that when Fuller and LFR/Fury divorced, that a non-compete was executed. That would have effectively put one or the other out of business.

    If a company comes up with some wizbang technology, and all the employees have signed and executed proper documents making it clear the IP belongs exclusively to the company and can never be used or disclosed in any way by an employee, even if the employee leaves the company, and must keep all company secrets secret. Then the wiz bang technology is secret and IP within the company walls. But without a patent, once that technology is included in a product that leaves the company plant, there is no more trade secret, IP, proprietary info, etc. and it is in the public domain.

    I wish I could use a very long string of swear words to accentuate how stupid this chassis dust up is.

    Since there are no patents, this is a schoolyard fight over IP, secrets, proprietary info, etc. that most likely doesn’t really exist. Because once any of that made it out to the public, it is no longer IP, secrets, proprietary info. It is in the public domain. So any documents that might have been executed were effectively nullified and vacated when product saw the light of day and was out in the open and public domain.

    Still can’t unring a bell. Once a secret is no longer a secret and is out in the open, it can not be made secret again. If anyone can see it, it ain’t a secret. That’s what happens when a chassis gets shipped to a customer, and gets resold numerous times on the secondary market. 🤣

    Who are all the parties required to execute confidentiality agreements? 😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡 And what happens when the chassis gets resold on the secondary aftermarket? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. How is the chassis supposed to be dispositioned to protect this secret IP? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    I’m not a lawyer, but these are things I worked with lawyers in developing contracts, Statements of Work, specifications, MOU, Scope of Work, patents, IP definitions, etc. from the Engineering Department perspective in very high technology industries, such as aerospace, weapons platforms, life support, space technology, and other military grade, high reliability, high technology equipment. Far more sophisticated than a pile of welded pipe.

    It’s been a free form product space for decades, there’s nothing left to patent. I would love to read the documents that were considered binding through this drama. Were these documents written with crayon on construction paper?

    It is simply absurd to claim something that is not patented and has been out in the public domain is IP, proprietary, trade secret, etc.

    So again I’ll ask: what is this super secret proprietary intellectual property included in these chassis that has been out in the public domain? 🤣🤣🤣 Specify it. 🤣🤣🤣

    Unless that question can be explicitly answered with extremely detailed specifics, this issue is total 🐂-💩.

  27. Sounds like you just went to bat for Rob Fuller DGF since that’s the point he made. That’s new.

  28. Dareal, the rulebook specs out the material used, and some crucial measurements for safety reasons. It does not specify the design of the Chassis. Although the cars somewhat appear alike, under the body skins each Chassis design is different. Even the bolt on items differ between builders. Even on, for example, a Troyer TA-3, teams use different spindles, shocks, springs, trailing arms and A frames depending on preference and the feel the driver is looking for. To say Modifieds are “generic” is just stupid and shows how little you actually know about race car construction and set up.

  29. Getting a little off course here. The racing world lost one of it’s best chassis builder / setup master / driver…Mike Stefanik. Back in 1998 Mike drove the X6 car to 13 wins. A car that he designed, built, set up and drove. Just imagine if he had actually started producing and selling those cars. I think the modified world might look a little different now.

  30. Stefanik also had a hand in designing the SPAFCO cars he drove for Art Barry, and won championships.

  31. Rob p. wrote, ” Even the bolt on items differ between builders. Even on, for example, a Troyer TA-3, teams use different spindles, shocks, springs, trailing arms and A frames depending on preference and the feel the driver is looking for. To say Modifieds are “generic” is just stupid and shows how little you actually know about race car construction and set up.”

    Talk about target rich environments…

    Please refresh my memory and post the link to where I wrote the modifieds were “generic”.

    Rob p., this CHASSIS tiff is all about the pipes… NOT the springs, spindles, shocks, rear axle setup, etc. Shock absorbers are pure magic to almost all, and are completely not understood. You can’t even say what the dimensional units used to define shock performance are, AND what they mean. And how it relates to the loads, weight and springs. Then try to explain the shock tuning. You and most others would have better luck winning the POWERBALL. If you want to change this to a keyboard debate about who does the best TOTAL CAR SETUPS, that’s what gets competed every year… it’s called the NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour standings. It’s been going on for decades. The standings rank the teams with the best talent.

    So are you trying to blur the issue? Please help me out here… are we talking about someone that tried to make a splash with an allegedly new technology chassis (pipes) or is it an attempt to start a new dimension of total car setup expertise? Be careful… look a the early years of the 15, it sucked until the talent and expertise of Dowling and Kopcik ran it. And the other product that performed well was in the hands of Phil Moran and other top talent crew chiefs.

    Hey Rob p., where’s that all important R&D car?

  32. That all important R&D car???
    Who runs an R&D car nowadays? To run one becomes cost ineffective. In addition, not many drivers want to compete in a “science project”. You can setup a car put 10 different drivers in it, and get 10 different answers to how it felt. Plus with builders having multiple teams to lean on, unless the make a major major change they don’t need an R&D car. Fuller worked on the 46 car all weekend, and it won. Be willing to bet Rob tried something new

  33. Oh Rob p., Fuller himself dinged Troyer for not running an R&D car when Fuller was running what he called an R&D car (it looked more like a marketing car). And in all the years Fuller ran an “R&D” car, it was only impressive when Dowling and Kopcik were running it. He can’t run an R&D car again unless he gets a driver and crew chief that are that good again. That ain’t gonna happen any time soon. Looks like the “R&D” car was to make it look like he could run with the big dogs, like Phil Moran, Ryan Stone, etc. It took top talent like Kopcik and Dowling to do that. He’s not gonna run an “R&D” car any time soon, just let the memories of what Dowling and Kopcik achieved to linger on.

    But for all that “R&D”, all Fuller was able to do was get competitive with the Troyer cars, other LFR cars, and the top talent running them. Lap times aren’t any better, track lap records haven’t been shattered. The standings still rank the teams with the best collective talent.

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